Posted by Dave on June 15, 1999 at 02:26:33:
In Reply to: Re: Chill posted by Jon on June 14, 1999 at 08:28:07:
: My following comments are made under a white flag if truce ... DON'T SHOOT!
: : : I've been reading the posts for the last couple of weeks now and I'm at loss for what to say. I don't understand why personal insults have to accompany disenting opinions. There have been many excellent points made. I don't think that verbal mud wrestling is the direction this should be going in.
: : Problem was this. Jon wanted us to buy that American (LA) animators are overpaid and lazy.
: Breathing in, breathing out ...
Thanks for reminding me.
: : He said ďoh yes, we can do it here but we should accept that it is all fun and we should be competing with starving workers in other countriesĒ.
: Um, kinda ... only because I think it's possible.
It is , but not on the same pay scale. My point is American animators have more than just economy to offer (that doesnít exlude hitting budgets either).
: : Oh, and those lyin cheatin Canucks are having money stuffed in their pockets by a socialist government. Sheeesh.
: Never said anything like that.
You only never said the *lyin cheatin* part. My embelishment. The part about socialism giving them an advantage through a money hand out was.
: Every business should take advantage of what their government has to offer. American studios just don't have much to work with, other than tradition - which is fading.Ď
I felt it was a poor climate to start a witch hunt in though. Rumors turn easily into some kind of fact that seem to require no evidence. See the National Inquirer for proof. I have no problem with bring it up but I feel we need more than assumtion. Despite their foreign designation they are still a part of this because they participate in this business. Protectionism breeds protectionism. Itís time to end the Canadians misconception that we are unable to hold our own as well. I believe (like Tom Sito) that they cant be viewed as just invaders or we are creating the same mindless attack that got LA turned into an animator ghost town at one time.
: : Animation wasnít created to discuss this but I felt It was necessary to clear both up first. As you say, yes, it was created to form unity but in truth Charles, it is an important misconception. Imagine that it is part of what exactly will destroy unity if it isnít discussed here. Jon runs a unit in Chicago that seems to exist on the fact that are happy they arenít LA.
: We're just happy to exist.
I wont quote you but there were more than a few *Iím glad not to be you* and *I feel sorry for you * references. I know you didnít mean them to be hurtful but Iím not sure we deal well with pity.
: : He seems to think that we should just accept and love that about him despite the insulting undertones. Like someone with a heartfelt prejudice he cant see why we would be upset by that.
: (Jon flutters his eyelashes hopefully)
Love is a many splendored thing isnít it ?
: : Unity requires equal respect. If that cant be had, there is no unity. As he said, he came here to change minds but not on the issues we were discussing.
: How can I respect you Dave, when you NEVER give me flowers any more, never read me poetry any more, and half the time when I would wake up in the hotel room, YOU would be GONE, off galavanting I suppose with your OTHER lovers ...
Do you prefer orchids or daffyodils ?
: : : Animation Nation is a medium for getting ourselves together. I can just imagine what the typical animation executive would say if he or she were reading some of these messages. It would provide them with the perfect consolation that nothing in our industry will ever change.
: : Hmmm. I cant say I would care if an exec read this. The question is whether Jons participation at all is necessay. He seems to have little experience with the issues nor does he care about the damage. He was very open about his agenda and mission. The idea that a producer can walk away with 7 million dollars of a 20 million dollar budget has little effect on him.
: As far as that goes, it's hard not to catch a cold in Chicago when you sneeze in LA. The reciprocal is NOT true, because anything we do here in Chicago doesn't matter for doo-doo. If I can't keep up with what's happening there, I can't survive. The difference lies in our points of view. We haven't walked in each other's moccasins, but I think it's far more important that I walk in yours than you walk in mine. I keep remembering a funny bumper sticker I saw while in LA: "Welcome to sunny California. Now go home." I assume that until I move to LA like Dave did, I should refrain from commenting (and insulting). OK, I get that now.
Itís fine to comment Jon. I have no problem with that. You want people to know you have done animation here and thats great. I totally understand that, the problem ahead is totally what dictates your financial position. Overloaded execs that make your show deadlines five minutes before air dates yet send you boards that dont work or give you shows that they have Pced to death and are now so mediocre you couldnít make them funny even if you killed yourself. The point being they tend to take little advantage of your best attributes or abilities. Itís not just about being able to animate, itís about WHY we animate.
: : : How many times do I have to say this? We are not the enemy. One of the reasons that things in animation have gotten so screwed up is because we let it. We fight among ourselves like infantile novices over issues that simply don't warrant this kind of response. The home page of this website proclaims that we should unite. Anyone following what's been going on lately would think that's the last thing on anyone's mind.
: Passion is what makes us artists. But yeah, let's back off and take a breather. Kisses, Dave?
: : Itís not obvious, but that is exactly what is happening here. How can we even think of approaching anyone with a thought for cleaning up management when the view execs have of us are just like Jons. Lazy, stupid, greedy , fat and powercrazy animation staff. The idea that none of us are aware that there is even a limit to budgets is insulting at best. Itís studio owners like Jon who reinforce that idea to the management to begin with. You accept that they will just give us the benefit of the doubt and say ďhey, thatís greatĒ. I dont.
: Still backing off ...
Here are some cheese and crackers. This easy chair is pretty soft.
: : : A lot of good has come from this site and this message board. Why are you so willing to demean it with unprofessional attitudes and petty little insults. Valuable information has been shared by very experienced artists who may not come back because of the level of this dialogue. If someone disagrees with you, there's nothing wrong with it. It's the way of the world. If you can't get anywhere with that person, then just let it go. Things in L.A. are different than they are in Chicago, New York, Texas, Canada, wherever and vice versa. The suit culture is different. Feature animation has its own criteria as does television production and video games. Each has its place in the pantheon of what we do. What works in one area may not be appropriate for the other. The differences don't automatically give one a license to be so quick to judge. If you've never worked in animation in L.A., then think twice about the conclusions you come to. If you haven't worked in Chicago, New York or Australia, the same applies.
: Charles said that, if I'm counting my colons correctly. So I consider myself scolded.
But nicely though. Charles makes you feel pretty good about it. Itís a gift.
: : A good point since no one accused the artists there of anything.
: Wouldn't matter if you did, but you're right.
Itís a curse.
: : : This web site was originally initiated for the benefit of animation artists in L.A. If it hadn't been for this message board, most animation artists in Los Angeles would of had no idea what was going on outside of this area. The contributions by everyone who's been participating so far have been significant. They've vastly expanded the scope of this movement. Why ruin it with this meaningless infighting.
: : Practice. Unless you face what is being said silently then you will be fighting an invisible enemy. Itís an illusion that the body of our discussion was unimportant. How LA animators are viewed outside is nothing less than key. This is where the majority of studios are. Unity starts here. There is no question that there are great studios all over the US but few are the central studios .
: : The discussions with Tinkerbell are more or less repeating the same conversation.
: StarToons is not great, that's for sure, but we HAVE to make noise ... you understand that, right, Dave?
Of course. Itís advertising. Itís just not that nice being the fat person in the before picture Jon. You understand right ?
: If, however, there's anything we can do to help your community, THAT would be key and I hope you'll let me know.
Trying to suspend previous assumptions would be great. Charles is right. The only enemy is ourselves. No picket lines, no big money demands. Unity through common goals. A productive and effective animation community.
: : : You're welcome to come here and say what you want. I'll continue my policy of leaving everyone's messages unedited. Please use the better part of discretion when you have something meaningful to say.
: : That freedom is seldom abused. I was told I was MAD ANIMATOR despite the fact I posted againt his comments so I felt it important to post. Sorry Charles, I cant apologize for that. In my mind the will to join us on this must be something they decide on their own. In case you havenít noticed the rebelious spirit is what led many nonunion studios to stand off on their own in the first place. Rebellion is totally American. That Jon, is what I embrace and respect. To expect them to just join us without heated debate is a bit wishful . Issues are too long undiscussed and unresolved to be dropped for a momentary alliance so it will take a bit of head knocking at first. If there is any hope, it is that an exchange was made and with some time the practical experience of business will allow the ideas to be tested. When next we meet the issues past blame will be less important because we already know each others opinion. That, though you may not see it this way, is progress.
: By the way, Dave, the implication was also made that I made the Anonymous comments,
And I never assumed it was. I just thought others might. Itís not fair to you.
: and also the comments about StarToons' nice work on the Tiny Toons series. Now your point, Dave, was well taken. Let's sign our names, guys. Anonymous, Mad Animator, both commenting under cover.
Agreed. There should be no reason not to. I have no reason to doubt your work is great. Who ever posts comments without their name isnít helping you, they are making it look like they dont want to be taken seriously.
: Hey, but also, let me insert a comment here in the spirit of rebellion. I'm a big Civil War geek, OK? The South kicked butt for the first 2-3 years, even with the deck stacked against them. The North outnumbered them 2 to 1 in just about everything. Interestingly, the two big powers in Europe, England and France, remained neutral throughout.
They *appeared * be neutral but I understand the French were helping the south. Am I wrong on this ?
:They considered it an unwinnable war for the North; Napolean's tacical theories had shown that an invading force needs at least a 3 to 1 advantage to achieve success, and the South was banking on that: they stayed put and defended their territory. Gettysberg was a big mistake, when Lee invaded the North in 1863 with an inferior force. What does that have to do with animation? Um ... I dunno, but I know I had a point ...
The advantage of attack no doubt changed the odds even with inferior numbers.
: Oh yeah, here it is: the South had a superior game plan and superior military leaders ... but one of the big problems they had was in-fighting. There was no "all for one, one for all" spirit with them; the thing they were fighting for was "states rights," so Alabamian troops didn't take kindly to being led by somebody in Virginia. Etc. It was ugly.
: Alright so enough history lesson - I sense eyes glazing over. I'm not about states' rights and I don't care who's commanding, OK?
Well, no one should follow blindly is a good point. A clear and established common goal is in order to get unity. Can it be done ? That is the question. Instead of LA vs anyone it has to be North America vs apathy. The Japanese have been superior to us because they work together. Sharing info , tech and manpower. Clinton at the beginning of his office brought all the high tech companies together and basically called them all self interested greed mongers. He explained that until there was sharing of all these thing and common goals for advancing American companies that they were all competing amongst themselves, not the world. Can we apply this to ourselves given the structure of present animation companies ? Is that socialism or nationalism.
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