Posted by Dave on June 13, 1999 at 01:00:09:
In Reply to: More to send Dave's blood pressure skyward posted by tinkerbell on June 12, 1999 at 01:05:21:
: Because I state Canada has a socialist govt. why do you start arguing with me about it's merits relative to the US? Did I take a position on that? I'm no fan of what the US govt. has become either.
Personally I could care less. Point is that ANYONE claiming they are disadvantaged because the Canuck government is handing out cash to steal American work is full of it.
: What would you characterize the Canadian govt as, capitalist? communist? fascist? Check out a dictionary. The Canadian govt. most closely resembles the definition for socialist.
Socialist implies they are somehow taken care of and dont have to compete. Get over it.
: As to proof that the Canadian govt. offers monetary incentives, the practise is so common it's astounding you're unaware of it.
You have no proof.
: The first example that comes to mind is a wretched cartoon called Pound Puppies and the Legend of Bigpaw. Produced by Atlantic/ Kushner and Locke.
Who ? Never heard of them. Never heard of the cartoon.
: By hiring a Canadian director and a few other Canadians in key positions,
Oh really ? For any funds it have to qualify as a Canadian , you dont just get funds for hiring a few mounties. Exactly WHERE was it animated then ?
: AKL was able to get the Canadian govt. to underwrite a substantial portion of the budget.
Where are the figures on this ? You do know what *proof* is dont you ? Hey, Im think you are taking gtrants for Canadian Content, no I dont have to prove it, everybody knows. Yeah , right.
:I expect you'll say I'm just making this up. That there's no such movie. Then if I mail you a copy of the movie you'll say this doesn't prove the director is Canadian.
No, Iíll say where is your proof that ANY of the budget was obtained under Canadian Content.
:Then when I send you a copy of his birth certificate(not that I have one) you'll contend it's phoney, or you'll demand to see tax documents or a profit and loss statement. But if you just ask around a few more people in the biz you're bound to find someone who'll confirm that this practise is routine.
Until I got to this message board I had no idea YOU were using it as an your excuse. Sorry, but itís a laugh to hear people complain LA animaters think the world owes them a paycheck and then whine about how other people beat their budgets unfairly without proof .
: Why does it outrage you that this is so? What axe do you have to grind?
Axe to grind ? Hey, I hear you boys get kickbacks. You dont mind if I spread that around ? I mean, dont worry that no one is here to defend the truth. Oh, and if you dont get any work because I tell lies about you, thats ok right ?
: : Sorry bout your father, but itís not an unlimtied demand. There arenít any hospitals to do it in. There are no doctors to do it. And I totally agree with you on where the costs are hidden.
: Sweet Jesus, a miracle! We agree on something!;)
: : : Remember the Canadian content laws?
: : Yeah I do , ABSOLUTELY NO ONE I KNOW HAS EVER RECEIVED ANY KIND OF GRANT, INCENTIVE , DONATION , SUBSIDE OR TAXBREAK BASED ON CANADIAN CONTENT OR ANY OTHER FILM GRANT ! Do you have ANY idea what you have to do to qualify for those Canadian Content production funds ? Of course not. Iíve never ever heard of anyone who got funding from the government.
: What an outrageous claim!
It is ? You mean I SHOULD KNOW someone who received grants ? Really, now who is being outrageous.
: That because you've never heard of anyone receiving funds, you conclude no one has ever received them. The national film board has a budget and there spending it on something.
The FILM BOARD IS FOR ARTISTS THAT DONT DO COMMERICIAL ANIMATION!!!!!!!!!!! They hire artists from all over the world to do animation painting on glass, animating with beads , cutouts, plasticine, badly drawn 2d and documentaries. Even if you a Canadian its hard to get funds unless you live in Quebec and speak French Canadian because the animation unit is in Montreal. To this date I know of absolutely NO commercial work that was ever funded by the NFB. The budgets they hand out to individuals could be spent in total on a big night out at Arbys.
: Although I have never tried to get govt. money for animation, (I'm opposed to taking taxpayer's money for my own selfish interest) because I'm a citizen of a country who offers these kind of incentives,
Sure as hell isnít Canada.
:I've been offered more than one job so that an American company could do a co-production and use government money to help pay for their costs.
Thats up to your own sense of morals but expect resentment if you do. Iím a Canadian and I dont believe in using taxpayers money either, but then, Iíve cant because Canada doesnít get those kind of grants. If I took a Canadian writers script , hired all Canadians, and produced it all in Canada I could get enough money to buy a good set of tires.
: : : You are eligible for special handouts from the Canadian govt. if key members of your production are Canadian.
: : You are talking about CANADIAN LIVE ACTION MOVIES, not American animation series work. Dig the phrazzzze Tinkerbell -CANADIAN CONTENT!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT CANNOT BE APPLIED TO AMERICAN PRODUCTIONS !!!!! IT IT SOLEY USED TO GET CANADIAN CULTURE TO HAVE SOME PART IN THE PEOPLES LIFE BECAUSE 99% OF CANADIAN TV MUSIC AND FILM ENTERTAINMENT COMES FROM THE US!!!!!!!! 300 million people vs 27 million.
: As I said above, Americans can take advantage of subsidies by hiring a few Canadians in key spots. This applies to animation or live action. I believe the categories are writer,director,producer. Two out of three of those have to be Canadian to qualify.
Proof of ANY CANADIAN ANIMATION UNIT GETTING ANY GRANTS ON CANADIAN CONTENT FOR ANY AMERICAN ANIMATION PRODUCTION PLEASE!!!!!
: : :This is true for TV, movie and music. The Canadian govt. was also providing huge tax incentives to attract TV and Film production to Canada.
: : THEY PROVIDE ABSOLUTELY NO SUBSIDES,INCENTIVES, GRANTS, BONUSES, REBATES, TAX BREAKS, OR ANY OTHER GIFT TO ANYONE DOING AMERICAN ANIMATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Post proof of any going to competing animation Canadian companies or drop it . Evidence, you know , the stuff you said you *lean towards *.
: I posted an example above. But it's probably a fabrication.
What, you think just posting the name of a crappy cartoon is proof of a grant ? Hey, why dont we just start running off a bunch of names. I mean , you dont have to have any proof so itís just fine. Man, you and I have totally different ideas of what *evidence* is.
: They're also not doing the very same thing in France, Germany and Benelux. So there would be no point in contacting Euromedia Co-productions or any number of totally fictitious companies with your projects because they're all just hateful propaganda designed to get your hopes up.
: : : I don't know for a fact that this is still going on,
: : Translation: Absolutely no proof.
: Translation: The trades were awash with stories of American TV and Movies being filmed up in Canada to take advantage of the tax advantages available.
Translation: Stronger American currency. Now get this Tinkerbell, EVERY AMERICAN CITY OFFERS TAX, LAND, SHOOTING AND OTHER PRIVILAGES TO VISITING FILM CREWS!!!! EVERY CITY !!! Now ask WHY. BECAUSE THEY DUMP HUGE DOLLARS INTO THE LOCAL ECONOMY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:But those stories were false. They only did it because it's so much more convenient to shoot your productions thousands of miles away, and to take advantage of Canada's far mopre experienced film crews.
: : :but assuming Jon has had his business for the last five years or more, he would've conceivably had to bid against companies being offered those advantages.
: : POST ANY PROOF OF THIS! You whined about backing up things with evidence but you have absolutely NONE!
: : See the above lies that I'm offering in lieu of any proof.
In otherwords, no proof.
: : : : Next I expect to hear that animators get mail in rebates for every foot of American animation they do. What crap.
: : : :
: : : : Tell you what Jon, I will list all the things I've done for free, animation for freinds, work on projects for no cash or recognition whatsover, time I spent, equiptment I've lent, connections I've made, references I've given. No money. Again, you dont know a damn thing about any of us. I'm getting tired of you sitting back and making summations of who we are without knowing anything about us. . It's your greatest flaw.It makes you blind.
: : : Why do you assume he's talking about you?
: : Who else has he been arguing with ?
: He wasn't arguing with anyone.
:You responded to a post he made to me.
I responded to your accusations.
: : : Guilty conscience?
: : Yes, Tinkerbell was too sweet a name for you.
: : :If you contend that every one in the animation industry has an impeccable work ethic you're wrong!
: : Please repost where I said that.
As I said. Please repost where I said that.
: : :That doesn't mean everyone has to be a slacker for Jon's contentions to be true.
: : It also means that the rest of us have to take him generalizing. Name those people.
: : :I just had someone offer to work Saturday for free because we lost a day's work to faulty equipment. Not her fault in any way! She just knows the extremely tight budget on this project. Some people like her, are willing to do anything! But for every one of her, there are ten people wandering in at 10AM, 11AM then taking a two hour lunch. But watch 'em bolt out the door at six!
: : So, fire them. You arenít under any obligation to retain people who dont do the work. In fact, that is the giant mystery to all this. What the hell are you talking about them for, toss their asses out! Dont come to us and say *people just wont work*. You hired them ! Stop blaming us.
: Who's blaming you? I don't even know you?
ďSounds like they think the world owes them a paycheckĒ. You are absolutely correct, you dont.
: I can't fire everyone who doesn't put in a forty hour week.
Why ? Isnít that exactly what you and Jon are on about ? Being *productive* ?
:I'd have three people working for me.
Better three productive people than forty lazy people right. Of course, if they are being paid footage then you arenít paying for it right ?
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