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The case for an Independent Union

Share your views on the state of the Animation Industry.

Re: The case for an Independent Union

Postby SNAKEBITE » Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:25 am

But I thought it was an "obvious hatred"? You say "obvious" only after reading a couple posts???
And again, your correction made it sound like it was Charles prose that was the problem and not your lack of due diligence which would of been the correct correction correctly correcting. But I guess I expect too much. I read peoples choice of words too closely. Especially when it comes from a Union rep...and Steve, this thread is anti AN. you know nothing about us and yet you come here with these "obvious" observations based off an admittedly VERY limited understanding of the people behind AN...you would think that a man in your position wouldn't take such absolute stance on such matters without knowing what he is talking about.

But thats me. When it comes to absolutes and "obvious" statements I say them after much due diligence and consideration on my part.
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Re: The case for an Independent Union

Postby SteveK » Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:38 am

Charles -

I am glad and encouraged by your words. I can't speak for any allegations made against you in the past. As I stated just before this, I perused the posts of the old forum and picked up on the anger and aggressive tone of the conversations. If I misconstrued your true intentions, I apologize again.

The ability for people to visit the blog and anonymously spit out meaningless comments carries its benefits as well as its detractions. One of the biggest benefits is the ability to allow people to have a voice at all. Some people still fear public ridicule by agreeing with our positions or policies. As the Guilds Organizer, and even with as little tenure as I have, I could tell stories about this. Anonymity allows everyone to have a voice. It unfortunately gives other people the opportunity to be crass, rude and make completely useless comments into a discussion. Personally, I would love the opportunity to sit with Scott Ross for no other reason than .. he's Scott Ross! I would also love to discuss with him his Society and how TAG, the IA or any organization interested in representing the artists would fit in.

I am unaware of what happened at the September meeting in 2008. I will read the link you provided. I am unaware of any past relationship between AN and TAG other than what I've read here. I am ultimately interested in the same thing you are - the artist. As a visual effects artist of little note, I worked with and around some of the finest artists in the trade here in our fine city. I watched those artists lament without benefits and decided to take a stand. I did it at the Guild, because it was the only organization that had any stake in the game that I could find. I am glad to have done it and strive to make a positive change in all respects.

I plan on continuing my visits as I enjoy discussing the Guild and making a difference within its ranks. As I've stated, I can not speak to what happened in the past, but I look forward to be a part of its future. I am always in favor of artist-centric organizations and see no reason the Guild shouldn't support AN.
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Re: The case for an Independent Union

Postby SteveK » Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:42 am

Snake -

Yes, obvious. As in your obvious frustration with us from your few posts that I am picking up on.

However, in the light of "New Beginnings" I apologize for being so blatantly wrong about AN in my few posts. I'll write off my misconception to the heated discussions that I perused and the foolish nature of assumption.

As a wise man before me said "New Forums, New Day".
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Re: The case for an Independent Union

Postby Charles » Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:46 am

Steve, here's some background on AN's history with the Guild.

There was April 1, 1999 - The Great Alliance at Sportsmans Lodge in Studios City, which we initiated and which I paid for.

Our support of the picket of the local PBS affiliate in Hollywood in April, 2000.

The annual AN meetings on April 1 which became Animation Day and which the Guild eventually walked away from.

Did you know that Tom Sito played a significant role in the birth of the AnimationNation movement in February 1999? Of course not cuz he omitted that part from his 2006 book "Drawing the Line, The Untold Story of the Animation Unions". Now that's an appropriate title!

Did you know that Bronnie Barry was the catalyst for the emergence of AN?

Do you realize how many studios went union in the summer of 1999, the year that AN was launched?

Did Koch tell you that he was at the second AN meeting on March 31, 2000? That it inspired him to get more involved with the Guild? Probably not. At least that's what he told me, but who am I.

Did Sito ever mention that he was at AN #1 on April 1, 1999? Did Hulett mention that he was there and scolded Snakebite to his face for challenging him?

And you guys don't even have the courtesy to come here and invite the community to your Christmas party anymore.

The gratitude of the Guild is overwhelming. No wonder so many people can't stand you guys.

Well, they have to join anyway so what's the big deal. You can get away with whatever you want to get away with and it won't make a difference.

As I said, you're welcome here, glad to see you, but you're not doing us a favor. I don't say that with animosity, just being frank with you. Maybe you can help rebuild some of the bridges you guys have let crumble, although it won't make a difference. The Guild will go on cuz you're a monopoly, but you have some work ahead of you if you expect to see people's sentiments and disappointments change.
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Re: The case for an Independent Union

Postby Charles » Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:49 am

In conclusion, welcome Steve. Glad to see you. No hard feelings.
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Re: The case for an Independent Union

Postby SteveK » Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:26 pm

Charles wrote:In conclusion, welcome Steve. Glad to see you. No hard feelings.

Thank you again Charles. For the invitation and brief synopsis. Its good to know what I'm up against.
:)
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Re: The case for an Independent Union

Postby EAllen » Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:41 pm

Even with what I know of AN's history with the Guild, Charles's point-for-point reiteration of key events was thoroughly valuable to me.

Steve, I believe a major sore point has always been the removal of AN's link from the TAG blog. An effort to restore that--not that I'm speaking for anyone here--but an effort to restore that would, I strongly believe, be greatly appreciated.
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Re: The case for an Independent Union

Postby SNAKEBITE » Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:54 pm

Now its obvious confusion on my part......soooo, my obvious frustration is like Charles' obvious hatred??? now its like an Abbott and Costello gag...

Actually I'm not frustrated at all...that would suggest I want something from the Union and I'm not getting it... Aside from calling it like I see it and enjoying pointing out the flaws in the system I really want nothing from the Union except to get out of my way. Sometimes I feel like I want to work with certain people who happen to work in Union shops and I don't because I don't appreciate the gate keepers telling me I owe them for working in their town.

I'd get the job using my work, negotiate my own deal using my lawyer, who I pay and then I have to pay the Union?...and then what happens when I work non union for a year because I want to work on more diverse projects, do I come back as member? nope, I have to start all over again. Where does that money go? do I get prorated? nope.

I'm not frustrated, I'm just over it and feel moved to speak my mind so that others might be inspired to do the same...and then maybe we'll see some changes down the road...maybe you guys will have to forced to prove you're worth it.

there's no secret. its just about humans dealing with other humans humainly.
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Re: The case for an Independent Union

Postby SNAKEBITE » Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:56 pm

I love Enoch. He's good people. but we don't want our link back on the Unions site. We point it out because it illustrates how much (or how little) the Union supports artists speaking their mind...It helps illustrate our point. thank you
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Re: The case for an Independent Union

Postby EAllen » Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:15 pm

As always Bite, you're awesome. Buttttt . . .

Wouldn't the link restoration go a long way towards easing some tensions? Wouldn't that still be a badass goodwill gesture?
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Re: The case for an Independent Union

Postby SNAKEBITE » Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:36 pm

Nope. At this point, to me, it would be patronizing.
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Re: The case for an Independent Union

Postby skynet » Sat Sep 11, 2010 12:33 pm

Actually.... I'd say putting the AN link back up would be great. It would show that AN and the Guild can still be associated outside of the disagreements and challenges that are continually faced. Taking the link down was a bad move and it showed the kind of aggression that shouldn't be associated with what the Guild is suppose to represent. Putting it back up would show that there are no ill feelings no matter what issues are unresolved. We're not here to fight. We are here to work together. Right?

We all deal with the times and changes of "reality" in our own way. Everyone's different, and what's right for some may be wrong for others and we have to each ultimately stumble across our own path that teaches us each what we are hopefully meant to learn from life....and if you're not learning something very important about who you are, I'd fear you're not truly alive yet.

One obvious thing is that living together peacefully is one of the hardest skills to learn and something this sad world needs a lot more of. What I've seen in general is that most people on opposing viewpoints do not know how to discuss issues without showing aggression or automatically reverting to immature behavior and uncivil words or deeds. Then "sides" are built up and the battles begin. This seems to be a natural human failure that continuously drives this planet's future toward the unfortunate direction it's headed. We know the truth is that there is no "side" and yet this behavior continues. We all live in the same place, are on the same side, and this has been confusing me my entire life when I see how people treat each other. Everything you see and that exists around you is all part of one substance. There is only one thing, it's unknown and happening everywhere around us and we are all part of it whether you'd like to admit it or not. As soon as we can all fully understand something similar to that, maybe the atmosphere will change. I think the fear of the unknown has led us astray when instead we should embrace it and try to understand ourselves and each other. The more of us that attempt to talk to each other as equals, the better off this place will be in the end. We should all be humbled by the fact that this world is very complicated and far beyond our present understanding...but that's just me talking.
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Re: The case for an Independent Union

Postby EAllen » Sat Sep 11, 2010 4:52 pm

I gotta say, Skynet, you nail it again.

But keep in mind Skynet, sometimes it is the will of the crowd. This industry is not led by people willing to admit their shortcomings . . . only their strengths, never their weaknesses. They love to behave as if they have none, although such a facade is incredibly hard to maintain when human beings are inherently flawed.

About the link, I see where Bite is coming from. That's about as clear a stance on an issue as I'm likely ever gonna see!
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Re: The case for an Independent Union

Postby skynet » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:08 pm

Thanks Enoch. I just say what I feel. Yeah...I guess you could say the mob rules. Individuals always have the highest potential but individuals together as a crowd can make overall rationality somewhat limited. It's a strange truth, but that is no excuse for anyone. Crowds don't speak for an individual.

What I'm waiting to see is when people can leave behind their weaknesses or whatever you want to call it. We're all guilty of being weak in one way or another. Believe it or not, there are false-cores, false-selves and false-compensators inside all of us, excluding no one. They are instilled in us starting at birth and eventually make us act out our lives as someone we are not, but it takes a lifetime dedicated to self observation to realize this and attempt to become "false" free. We are not who we are and that's a quantum psychological fact. Anyway, I don't know anyone who's very interested in that. We're all more occupied with basic survival in a goofy place where we are forced to work our whole lives day in day out as worker ants to attain this silly meaningless paper stuff called money. Go figure.

Well, one thing I try to do is think and live in the moment. Stuff that happened in the past doesn't exist or matter that much to me, within reason of course. In this world, the past and the future are scarcely shadows of what's happening now. The only thing that matters the most is what are you doing in the present moment.
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Re: The case for an Independent Union

Postby EAllen » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:19 pm

That's the key, Skynet. Resisting the urge to give into what the crowd expects.

Ironically, for some the lure, the temptation is too great, and again we're not talking about "strong" individuals to begin with!
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Re: The case for an Independent Union

Postby SNAKEBITE » Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:30 pm

If they put it up because thats what they think we need then it doesn't succeed in seeing beyond on differences and it would have no value what so ever...if they put it up because they truly see supporting us is better then scolding us then sure, kumbaya.
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