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Author Topic: Happy Columbus Day
Paburrows
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While not everything is perfect a lot of good things has come out of Columbus and his discovering America. Todays a great time for those who live in America to reflect on the blessings that we do have.

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OFFBEAT
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http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=19495214
..and happy boat day!!

..truth is a bitch.. ain't it? [cheers]

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SNAKEBITE
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those dudes are wrong... he killed millions, 3 million actually. round abouts. a lot of them died being shipped back to Italy as slaves but couldn't survive the boat ride. silly natives.

also, the reason why he shipped slaves back is because he couldn't find gold, which was the real reason he convinced the queen to let him sale the ocean blue.

the truth doesn't suck, the lies do.

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SNAKEBITE
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I should say, the truth isn't a bitch, columbus was...or the queen..either way..its not the truths fault, offbeat.

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OFFBEAT
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I meant that the truth sucks if you're planning a "Happy Columbus Day!!" party.

[cheers]

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OFFBEAT
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I read once that Hitler got the idea to exterminate the jews from how America "Dealt With"
the Native Americans.

I don't mean to sound Anti-American.. but I refuse to break into my someone's house.. rape and kill him and his family and call it "Free Home Day!"

From this site:
http://www.transformcolumbusday.org/faqtcd.html

Before Columbus sailed the Atlantic, he was a slave trader for the Portuguese, transporting West African people to Portugal to be sold as slaves. Columbus initiated the first Trans-Atlantic slave trade. Columbus, his brother, and his son all continued slave trading of indigenous peoples from the Americas to Europe and from Africa to the Caribbean. Under his administration as viceroy and governor of the Caribbean Islands, 8 million people were killed, making his "contribution" to history the first mass genocide of indigenous peoples. The Columbus legacy is steeped in blood, violence, and death. Public holidays celebrating Columbus not only teach children to honor a cruel and brutal man, they encourage people in this society to ignore, look away, and even support racist practices embedded in today's economic, political and judicial systems.

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OFFBEAT
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I take Columbus Day pretty serious.. because in the fourth grade I asked the teacher "How can you 'Discover' a country when there are people already there?"

The teacher punished me by having the entire class write a 10 page report on him. A.. "I'll teach you to question our propaganda!!!" sort of retaliation.

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SNAKEBITE
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People really need to read
The Peoples History of the United States.

its powerful and really illustrates what little we know of our origins as a country and a people. We have a lot to be proud about but much more to be ashamed about.

..in addition,if we did know more about our history we might show more compassion for issues like...immigration.

Imagine an America where immigrants come over and not only take our jobs but take our land, our food, our loved ones and our lives. Thats what early americans did to get this wonderful land
in the first place.

heres a little something we can discuss on Columbus day. The natives of this land got next to
nothing as far as land, freedom and opportunity
after the white man came. The white man took everything of theres and gave them crap living conditions called "Sovereign" nations...or crap ditches as I like to call them. ever been to a res before?

anyways, these people lived in poopoo conditions for generations and they used the white mans greed to get them out of their slump by making casinos
on these sovereign lands. which was perfect for the white man to practice their illegal(illegal by their own standard) habits in safety.

Now that the sovereign tribes of north america are making profits the white man wants a cut of their profits. They use the excuse that the tribes live on this land in America and need to contribute financially.

oh man, someone farted.

so now, these people are paying taxes on their sovereignty so that they can continue to be sovereign...????...so we rape them again.

They build self reliances after we destroyed their tribes and now we want a cut off the crap ditches we forced them to live in that they turned around to be profitable?

cuz why?

we can't take care of ourselves.

it makes me sick and embarrassed.

We are currently being saved by the people we tried to destroy so we could discover their land.


"Happy Columbus Day!!" party hats for everyone!

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ApeLad
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quote:
I read once that Hitler got the idea to exterminate the jews from how America "Dealt With"
the Native Americans.

Eugenics was quite popular in America from 1890 till about 1940 (sometimes called the Nadir period of race relations) until Hitler showed the world what it really meant.
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SNAKEBITE
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I want to add Im sure Paburrows was only tryin to convey a positive message and any hostility in my reply is certainly not directed towards him.

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OFFBEAT
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Right! No aggression meant towards Paburrows at all!!!
All love!

Just.. disagreeing with the celebration of this holiday.. and Thanksgiving in a friendly way!

[cheers]

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Paburrows
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None taken, I disagree with you, but none taken. Thats whats great about America, we can believe what we want and disagree with each other! Thats partially thanks to Colombus and the Pilgrams. They made mistakes, but we have what we have because of them. You have the right to disagree with me because of them.

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SNAKEBITE
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well, KCET and the History channel disagree as well. they are both broadcasting what we're talking about right now and totally support me and Offbeats beefs.

Just sayin.

we can celebrate our freedoms and our power as people. lets just give props to the proper source...our spirit!

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Tobias A. Wolf
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That's a pretty horrible story you posted above offbeat. Among many things, it was the questioning of conventional wisdom that led him on his voyage in some part. Which was exactly what you were doing in your challenge, and you should have been applauded. Education is just as much about learning via shared knowledge and experiences as it is questioning that knowledge, and learning how to think critically about it.

Today, anybody can be an quasi-expert on just about anything within a few short hours of searching on the web. But the ability to parse that knowledge and make breakthrough connections amongst disparate parts of it through critical thinking skills is rare indeed.

If Columbus is to be remembered for anything, it should be for his bravado and ability to keep his crew believing in his vision without being thrown to the sharks. To bring the mob (in this case all of the "educated" class of Europe) to reason is no easy task. I'm sorry, a guy who did that in an extraordinary way, deserves his own day. Despite all the misgivings, his is no small feat.

In an age of growing darkness, and religious fundamentalism taking such a strong hold among much of humanity, a triumph of reason over superstition should always be acknowledged for what it is - a ray.

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OFFBEAT
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My new battle cry around here is going to be
"Read a book!! Read a book!! Read a mutha f*ck'n book!!"

My whole bag is to give me the truth.. even if it's ugly.. even if it's bad for the 'greater good' .. I want the truth.

Even in the cold war.. Russia saw us as the villain. They saw how we treated black people ..and were appalled. To them we were money grubbing capitalists greedy world dominators that threatened their country and way of life (imagine that).

Al Queda doesn't think they are evil. They don't twirl their moustaches and say "moo hoo ha ha!! We'll show those Freedom lovers!! Moo hoo ha ha!"

They completely believe they are in the right.
The reason they attacked us on 9/11 is They saw our support of Israel as helping their enemy.. they saw our military support and build up in Saudi Arabia a threat... but it's easier for the average American yokul to swallow the propaganda that they are " teenage mutant cave dwelling freedom haters"
"Hiissss.. Freeeedom.. we hates it!! My precious!!"
and.. I come to that belief.. because THAT'S WHY THEY SAID THEY ATTACKED US.. it's not an opinion of mine to be believed or not believed.. it's what they said.

And If it goes down in the history books.. that a bunch of cave dwelling freedom haters hated our freedom so much.. they attacked us.. I'll ... i'll be a grouchy old codger that tells kids to get off his lawn!!!

And BTW.. They aren't cave dwellers.. this idea that Osama is living in a cave is more propaganda to make it easier for the American people believe that we 'have him on the run'
It's hard to get your beard dyed in a cave.
People can't handle the truth that he can be living confortably while avoiding our "pursuit" wink wink nudge nudge.

Columbus is another P.R. sham. He discovered america for imperialists to come in and enslave and conquer.

You can't discover a country if people are already living there. That's not opinion. It's common sense. And Lief Erickson came to America before Columbus.. 500 years before.. at least Erickson had the decency to land on American soil.
And not the Bahamas.

But feel free to look it up!
Read a book!! Read a book!! Read a mutha f*ck'n book!!

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OFFBEAT
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Tobias.. don't get me started on the american educational system. It was started in the 1800's and hasn't changed it's format since then.

I challenge anyone to get their hands on a high school text book and learn something from it.

Most topics and subjects are shorter than wikipedia entries, and then they question facts such as exact dates, and figure heads. Most battles in history books leave out all the juicy info that makes history so fascinating.. who provoked who.. body counts etc.. it's just regurgitations of the reported stories of the day.

30 years from now your grankids are going to have textbooks that say "Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein launched their secret group of cave dwelling freedom haters to attack the U.S. because of their love of freedom."
 -
Photo of the freedom hating Al Qeada
 -
Photo of Osama Bin Laden

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OFFBEAT
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai
Another example you'll never find in a textbook.

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OFFBEAT
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"He fired at it [the baby] with a .45. He missed. We all laughed. He got up three or four feet closer and missed again. We laughed. Then he got up right on top and plugged him."

That's one of OUR soldiers talking about another one of OUR soldiers from Viet Nam.

Yay! Support the troops!! (Regardless of what they do)

And it's not "my opinion" that happened. It's well documented in many other places than wikipedia.

Google "Operation Pheonix"

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OFFBEAT
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"History Is Written By The Victors"

Which is so true. You should google what the losers said about him.
The American Indians calls his deeds the 'American holocaust' ... but who cares what they think? They lost! Bunch of wussies!! Didn't even know what weapons were used for!!
So primitive!

But.. Columbus Landed in the Bahamas.. never touched America soil.
Leif Erickson discovered America 500 years before Columbus was born.
That is well documented.

Columbus didn't prove the world was round. Scholars knew that centuries before he was born.
This is well documented.

This isn't my opinion, or conspiracy theory.. it's fact!

I don't know why we celebrate him!

Hate to break it to some of you.. (please sit down for this) Ronald McDonald.. isn't the president of McDonalds. Santa Claus.. just a imaginary salesman of Christianity and Capitalism.

I have to question things that don't make sense to me... sorry!! I have to know WHY an Easter Bunny symbolizes Jesus raising from the dead. Why a bunny?? Why not a zombie? Most people say "Shut up!! It's a bunny! It's always been a bunny!! Deal with it! Don't question our faith!! It's sacred!! Now get out of the way of my 80" Plasma screen HDTV.. Easter Sunday Football is on!!"

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OFFBEAT
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I'm also going to be denouncing Thanksgiving this year as the Massacre of 700 Indians.. i'm giving you all a heads up.. in case you wanted to read up on it .. you have over a month head start. Plenty of time to ".. read a book.. read a book.. read a mutha' f*ck'n book!"

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JDC
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umm.. football is not played on easter sunday. Basketball, Hockey, and occasionally Baseball are in Season during Easter. However football is played on Thanksgiving.

Funny thing is Football and Baseball were both played on Columbus Day this year. The Cowboys and Indians both won their games.


[biggrin]

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SNAKEBITE
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Tobias...dude...columbus killed millions...hello, millions...this wasn't like, hey he had to kill some people...this is genocide.

just sayin

and Offbeat. Amen. we might as well praise Hitler for getting all those dudes in matching outfits band together to kill in the name of psychopathic idealism.

wow.."misgivings" thats some good stuff right there.

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SNAKEBITE
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In addition, now that Offbeat brought it up, thanksgiving needs to go too..or we to redefine what it is and how its represented. cuz any educated person should be disgusted with it..and I would
go off about Christmas but I really like giving
people gifts when i can afford it, and Santa really likes me, Jesus not so much, but santa and me are cool...anyways....

I'm all for celebrations and getting together, but can we just have celebrations that make sense?
or scrap that, how bout celebrations that are
just not about genocide..if we did that I'd be cool with the rest of it...for the most part.

would you do that for me, world? lol

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Fooksie
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Next year, it would be nice to have a " Happy Columbus Day " without the haters.

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rhinthell
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If you really want to celebrate the birth of our country, just turn to the 4th of July. No need to celebrate the massacres that came before via Columbus. At least that one is steeped in the blood of ACTUALLY fighting for freedom, and not for slavery or genocide. Unless someone wants to dig up something on that one too. [Wink]
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amanofan
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how many people really celebrate these holidays for what they are? Some people dont work and kids have no school.. i think thats what people celebrate. [Razz]
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Paburrows
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Offbeat, your proving another point of mine you said that history goes to the victors. Well most of what you read anywhere is opinion. There’s not a lot of difference between a school history book or Wikipedia, or the History Channel or the nightly news, its all opinion. Now I don't doubt that Columbus did some bad things, but we don't mention what kind of killing and scalping the Indians, did not that it excuses his actions.

Maybe if you don't like America you could try living in Iran or China or Cuba. Try speaking your mind there or displaying your spirit like Snakebite said. You'd probably get drug off and secretly killed, but at least you wouldn't have to live in a horrible place like America.

Like I said before though just because you and some others on believe one way does not make it fact. I acknowledge Columbus and the Pilgrims because despite their failings we would not live in a free country without their sacrifices. The French tried revolution for their freedoms and failed. That’s all I plan on saying about this subject.

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BobV
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Hey Offbeat, just wondering... I remember a few years ago, when Bush first invaded Iraq, you were very much for that war. I'm not trying to call you out or anything-- and I agree with you totally as far as where you seem to be at now. You just seemed to be much more to the 'right' before. I'm just wondering what changed your mind?

And I don't want to hijack this into another war thread by the way. I'm wondering about the thought process behind changing one's opinion.

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OFFBEAT
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I'm very middle of the road. I think team mentality.. chosing a side and agreeing with them on every topic regardless of what they do is an example of tiny brained thinking.

I hop between right and left on every topic.. whoever I feel has the correct sollution. I voted libertarian the year of Al Gore/Bush election because I hated Tipper Gores stance into music and art censorship. I didn't want that woman anywhere near the White House.

I wasn't really into the news.. just catching headlines, and heard what my dad had to say, regurgitated from Rush Limbaugh type media. and I believed Bush when he tied Iraq to 9-11 and said they had wmd's. I was pro-war.. I was hoping our troops would go door to door and skull f*ck every Iraqi for what they did to us on 9/11. It didn't even register in my head that he could be B.S. about it.. cause I thought the consequences of him doing that would be impeachment, and war crime worthy.

Then the anti-protesters kept saying "no blood for oil!!" yadda yadda yadda.. and I thought.. "Stupid Hippies! I'll show you!! "
and I set out to squash the hippie argument.. and read and read and read looking for evidence. It consumed all my free time. I couldn't find a damn thing. All I could find was evidence supporting the opposition's arugment. I realized I, and america was lied to. That's why I turned on Bush.. and why I hate him so much.
I felt ignorant that I let a bunch of illustrations of chemical labs.. pass as evidence of mobile WMD factories.

I'm a lot wiser of the way in which the world works, and history now.. and know that politicians can get away with anything.. as long as they have their supporters. And I regret letting my anger blind me when 9/11 happened, and not supporting cooler heads.

Instead of Door to Door Skull f*cking.. I would rather we thought.. thought so more.. and if war is the best solution we come up with.. think some more.

...I think/hope that answers your question??

quote:
Maybe if you don't like America you could try living in Iran or China or Cuba. Try speaking your mind there or displaying your spirit like Snakebite said. You'd probably get drug off and secretly killed, but at least you wouldn't have to live in a horrible place like America.
The ol' republican mind trick.. of if you can't argue your point.. either bring up Clinton's BJ.. or tell the person to "Git' out of the country if they don't like it" I Can't help that I was born here. And there are hundreds of options between Not liking a place, and leaving. Or being with us or the terrorists. There's a lot of grey area.. and is usually better than the first two options.

How about I stay.. and try to improve upon the things that aren't working??

How about I stay.. and bring up every past mistake that was made as a reminder whenever the current administration looks as if they are going to make another one?

If Hitler won.. and had his Europa the way he saw it.. It would have been the greatest civilization to ever exist.. but If I lived there.. I would mention the Jews every Happy Europa Day!

America is known as the country of two faces.. it gets us out of a lot of scrapes. We "discovered" this country.. yet we caused the genocide of the Native Americans who were here first.

But that sort of bullsh*t PR comes with anything done shady. I mean.. if we were open and honest about everything.. we'd sound like the biggest douche bags on the planet.

America is the Las Vegas of the world. All smoke and mirrors. All PR.. tight security.

Las Vegas doesn't say in its advertising "Come Here and lose all your money.. WE have booze, coke, meth, crack, weed, Male, Female and tranny hookers!!.. That's Las Vegas!! Bay-bee!!"

10 years ago they said "Come and see the shows!! Get a $4 dollar steak.. stay at a 4 star hotel for $60 night. Bring your family to Pirate Harbor!! Las Vegas.. A place for kids!" ..they realized they were losing out on the crack head hooker crowd so they've changed it back to "Vegas, What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas" Which is only true if what they mean by 'happens' means 'losing a sh*t load of money.' If you get aids there.. you're bringing that souvenir home with you.

We say we're liberating Iraq... and removing a brutal dictator from power... we're liberating Iraq of their way of life, and their oil.. and The brutal dictator was one that we didn't have a problem with, when he used to be OUR brutal dictator. We didn't have issue with him when he was killing people we wanted "dealt with."

I'm not a fan of saying one thing and doing another.

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rdelgado
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The thing about Columbus Day is that both sides of the man should be examined on a day like this: the guy who took a gutsy chance for many reasons and with the winds of politics swirling around him, as well as the absolutely irrefutable attrocities that occured as a result of the clashing of two cultures.

It is further ironic that the indigenous cultures suffered greatly, as did Columbus the man, who in his older years sat in prison, thinking that the world had forgotten him.

Ricardo Delgado

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Steve Schnier
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To stray off topic for a moment:

quote:
Even in the cold war.. Russia saw us as the villain. They saw how we treated black people ..and were appalled. To them we were money grubbing capitalists greedy world dominators that threatened their country and way of life (imagine that).
I have a friend (my age) who grew up in the Soviet Union during the cold war. One evening while my family was having dinner with his family, the subject turned to - "What did you think of us, growing up?" He had a very interesting perspective on the United States.

The average Russian wasn't afraid of America. Americans tend to play fair. The Russians were scared to death of China. "There's a billion of them. They're like ants. They just keep coming at you."

But who were they really frightened of? Canadians of course. The only Canadians they saw were Hockey Players. Long haired, wild men who would pull out their teeth (false teeth) and then start swinging their hockey sticks. [bow]

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ApeLad
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Offbeat, et al: have you read any books by this guy? He debunks a lot of the history around Thanksgiving and Columbus, and a lot of other things we've been mistaught. I'm reading his book on sundown towns right now, and it's an eye opener.
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OFFBEAT
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Actually.. Columbus died quite wealthy.. for all the gold he looted.

He was in jail for only 6 weeks. (because they jailed swell heroic guys back then!!)

But before he died, Columbus claimed god talked to him.. and wanted him to lead a crusade to capture Jerusalem as part of god's plan to bring upon the last judgment and end the world.

...yeah. [abducted]

quote:
Offbeat, your proving another point of mine you said that history goes to the victors. Well most of what you read anywhere is opinion. There’s not a lot of difference between a school history book or Wikipedia, or the History Channel or the nightly news, its all opinion.
History isn't written by the victors.. it's skewed by the victors. It's why so many times in history.. when armies would go in, and conquer a people they killed their wise men and burn their libraries.

History is about recording and collecting facts.. not opinions and heresy...
I think you're confusing history with religion... which requires no facts, and relies heavily on opinion.

You have to study History past national boundaries. America paints Columbus as a swell guy, yet if you're living in Spain, or a native American, or Mexican or Native of the Carribean.. you'd see the full picture.

Just as i'm sure Iran isn't publishing textbooks validating the Hollocaust.

You can't be spoon fed history. I would LOVE it if no one here believed me.. and looked it up for themselves. Remember? "Read a book.. read a book.. read a mutha' f*ck'n book!"

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OFFBEAT
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Apelad.. no.. I haven't seen that guy before.. I've heard the title of the book though.. I'll check it out.. thanks.

Snakebite suggested "The Peoples History of the United States."
I too recommend it.. excellent book.

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-FP-
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It would appear that rule number #1 is: Don't be a indigenous culture. They gets the sticky brown end.
quote:
go door to door and skull f*ck every Iraqi
There is an Extreme Associates video on that topic. It comes wif a lollipop.

Quick, which is worster: Columbus or the Iraq war?

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SNAKEBITE
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Offbeat,
"But before he died, Columbus claimed god talked to him.. and wanted him to lead a crusade to capture Jerusalem as part of god's plan to bring upon the last judgment and end the world. "


What if Columbus came back as Hitler?
That would be a cool premise for a Michael Bay movie...

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Charles
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I recommend reading "A People's History of the United States" by Howard Zinn. It was a major catalyst and inspiration behind launching AN. It's a history of the US that is not taught in school books and it's very well done and informative.

It starts with a quote from Columbus' log when he first discovers the New World. To paraphrase, he comments how pleasant and attractive the native people are, and how they would make good slaves.

Columbus was a master navigator, the greatest of his time. Sailing straight west into unchartered waters took incredible courage and skill. He made 4 trips across the Atlantic and died in Spain at the age of 55, a destitute and ruined man. Partly because of his shortcomings as admiral, partly because he didn't realize he wasn't in China, and very much because of his jealous enemies. Others took his glory for the discovery of the New World. It wasn't until 300 years later in 1792 after the US won its independence that a revival of the history of North America became popular and people realized it was Columbus and not Amerigo Vespucci who first crossed the sea. Thanks to the preservation of Columbus' detailed logs and the accounts of his voyages as recorded by his son that the history of what happened has been preserved.

With Spain's colonization of the New World that followed its discovery, it's easy and convenient to focus on the atrocities of the Spanish, or the faults of Colombus, as in particular here, his faith in God which at times was absolutely desperate. All cultures were into their dieties and they all had their superstitions which to them were the truth. It was a terrifying experience being thousands of miles from home and surrounded by hostilities and dangers from every direction. Your own crew, the natives, the weather, the land, the unknown...

It's easy to focus on the atrocities of the Spaniards, but in Central and South America, religious rituals involving human sacrifice en masse were practiced for centuries by the time the Spaniards arrived. Atrocities in that part of the world were nothing new by the time of Columbus.

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Charles
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In a strange and extraordinary coincidence, soon after I posted my comment above, I opened an old book I had lying around and happened to find an account of Ferdinand Magellan's circumnavigation of the Earth. The voyage started in September, 1519 and ended 3 years later to the month in 1522. It was written by Antonio Pigafetta who accompanied Magellan and kept a log of the voyage.

It's a remarkable read. He started with a fleet of 5 ships. Only 1 completed the trek. Of approximately 280 men, in the end only 18 survived to tell the tale.

The accounts of Magellan and his behavior are in marked contrast to Columbus and other European explorers. He was a fair man, very much beloved and admired by his crew. When food was scarce he was the last to eat. He treated indigenous peoples with kindness and respect, but would fight when he had to. At one island in the South pacific, he lost 60 men to the "Canibali" who ate them.

Some of the people on the islands he discovered were converted to Christianity, not by coersion, but because they wanted to become Christians after he preached to them. According to Pigafetta's account, "the Captain told them they should not become Christians for fear of us, or in order to please us, but if they wished to become Christians, it should be with a good heart and for the love of God."

Indeed, Magellan died in battle in defense of the native king and other islanders who became Christian. He and his men, about 40 in all, faced over 1000 hostile natives and he died from the many wounds he suffered. The natives took his body and those of the other Spaniards who were killed and refused to give them up or trade for them.

The first circumnavigation of the globe was an astonishing feat. Akin to travelling to the moon. Even moreso since they had no idea what they would be facing or finding. The men who took to sea in those days were very brave.

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Charles
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Forgot to mention this. In regards to Columbus and slaves. While in the South Pacific, or perhaps somewhere around the Philipines, Magellan met a captain who was a Moor, commandeering a ship from Siam, whose business was the transportation of slaves.

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