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Author Topic: More evolutionary proof...
Charles
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Fundamentalists. They're everywhere. Just goes to show, you don't have to be religious to behave like one.

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SNAKEBITE
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natural stuff happens...the thing is, everything is natural. even Hitler was natural...in a messed up way...IMHO that is... but its natural to disagree.

we confuse mans law for gods law all the time.

people really need to stop speaking on his behalf...cuz God emailed me and told me to tell you
to knock it off already.

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SoleilSmile
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I'm open to that idea as well Snakebite.


Remember what "God" said in Persepolis?

"Man did this, I did not".

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Metsys
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This is the kind of evolution that I'm scared of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upyewL0oaWA

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strawberry
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offbeat, i'm just kinda busting your chops with the god loves you bit. it's not heretical, i mean in the bible it says so, and christians believe the bible as god's word. it would be heretical to say that got enjoys pie more than cake, cuz that ain't on record.

i find it interesting that you speak of science as though it were a religion. man you're as hard line as any fundamentalist christian or muslim.

i don't agree with churches but that's man fukin' things up like man always does. jesus rioted against the pharisees because they were so corrupt. man is the church, god is above it. it is an ancient tradition and it brings comfort to many people. how can you be like "fuk that it's for idiots" when it gives people strength when they are weak, or comfort when they are in pain? science has yet to make a pill that fixes a busted spirit, so it's awesome that churches exist for that reason, right there.

i've felt my spirit stir and wanted to know why. going to church wasn't the solution for me. i tried it and i didn't fit. others find answers there so who am i to rail against it?

now if your real beef is with today's pharisees and corrupt institutions, i'm on board.

ps. god told me to tell you, "i saw what you did in there." what's he talking about???

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SNAKEBITE
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only the devil would want to see what he does...in there...

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OFFBEAT
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I don't understand the idea of "science fundamentalism"

...I can't imagine debating the laws of gravity.

Science is pretty clear what is theory and what isn't. It's a progressive march to understand things.. constantly correcting itself.

Religion is "as is".. and to argue is to spend all of eternity in hell. [Razz]

I don't know why.. religion seems like a big scam. There has yet been anything anyone's shown me in religion that does not make sense or isn't easily debatatable. Its simple answers for simple folks.

And science seems like a sincere human effort to explain the unknown. and honest admittance of "We don't know.. but let's figure it out."

Sorry if that offends. Religion just doesn't compute.

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OFFBEAT
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I don't understand the idea of "science fundamentalism"

...I can't imagine debating the laws of gravity.

Science is pretty clear what is theory and what isn't. It's a progressive march to understand things.. constantly correcting itself.

Religion is "as is".. and to argue is to spend all of eternity in hell. [Razz]

I don't know why.. religion seems like a big scam. There has yet been anything anyone's shown me in religion that does not make sense or isn't easily debatatable. Its simple answers for simple folks.

And science seems like a sincere human effort to explain the unknown. and honest admittance of "We don't know.. but let's figure it out."

Sorry if that offends. Religion just doesn't compute.

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SNAKEBITE
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I know a lot of scientists that think they got it all figured out.

when I say that science is a faith based belief system I can't tell you how many science types get all bent out of shape. I mean a hypothesis is an educated guess. emphasis on the word "guess".
its cool they put the word "educated"in front of it, but basically its a guess...one could argue that religious faith is a hypothesis as well. they educate themselves on the subject at hand and make a guess, which science calls faith. I see no difference.

and if you want to talk about the violence that comes out of religion then you would have to talk about how a lot of violence is made possible by science.

as much as science changes with new understandings
and findings, they are just as guilty as religious types when it comes to paradigms and close mindedness.

religions and religious people change with the times and new understandings too. every religious person I know cherry picks from the bible. I try to tell them that they are not followers of the bible but they insist they are even though they
don't believe every aspect.

science is like this as well. theories are made and the people that expand those theories or discover new ways of looking at those theories
don't always buy what the current theory is selling. they have faith their theories are the correct ones. proving them until someone comes a long and proves them wrong.

I mean, evolution and intelligent design could essentially be the same thing.

but thats just my theory.

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SNAKEBITE
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at least that was my understanding from the email I received from God.

he wrote, ps- I created evolution, dumb asses,
if it wasn't for me there would be no science.

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strawberry
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god just sent me a text and it said "man did you guys watch top chef"
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SNAKEBITE
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the Devil had me watching Hells Kitchen.

I try to keep an open line of communication with
both of those dudes. they keep me balanced.

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strawberry
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oh no there's the magic word

say it now

b-a-l-a-n-c-e-d

sweet sweet balance ... baby why you so sweet? balance! the dark and the light, mixin it up! what what!

ultimately thats what im getting at, that religion, science, politics, art ... everything is part of that perfect balanced diet.

offbeat - you insult my father's intelligence. and my mother, and my brother, and my aunt and uncle, and my granny - basically my entire family. you offend me by insulting them, so i defend on their behalf. this is why i take issue with your ridicule. if church isn't for you and you think it's stupid, that doesn't mean it's invalid. i think figure skating is stupid but people keep doing it and i'm not on here bustin' kristi yamaguchi's chops.

you've got a lot of questions about god, which suggests that the issue isn't as simple as you claim, and maybe you should look into it, just to see if you learn anything. like a science experiment.

well god just im'd me and said "ZOMG that guy in teh photo has huge nutzz LMAO" ... hehehe it's true he does. hilarious!

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SNAKEBITE
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I'm a libra, I'm all about the balance.

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OFFBEAT
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I OFTEN admit my own stupidity. I'll never call myself intelligent (outside of being funny)

I've met truly intelligent people.. and i'm not it.

Nothing wrong with being stupid. We're not all born with Harvard educations.

Also, Nothing wrong with simple folk. Simple folk can even become President, apparently.

Everyone thinks they are intelligent.. The same way every country thinks that they are #1.

I saw this because if we call someone who can calculate a rocket powered projectile, carrying a self sufficiant robot, and make it land on a planet millions of miles away... by purely using math...
(Those things aren't remote controlled!)
If we call people who can do that "intelligent."
Or the person who invented the microchip.. if we call them "intelligent"...

What do we call people less smart than that? Or do we lump all levels of intelligence under the "not stupid" feel good umbrella?


You and your family, (like everyone else) pass along your religion from generation to generation.. this is known as religious indoctrination. (like a hereditary disease)

Lemme ask you.. be open minded.. and really think about this... the religion you have now.. would you still have it if you were born into a family of Islamic fundamentalists?
Probably not.

You'd probably be chanting "Death to America!" right now. Would you have found Christianity if you were born in a country where the majority was Muslim??
Probably not.

It becomes part of your identity. At least if you want to be a part of your family. To challenge it.. is to challenge yourself. It's as painful as getting a bad critique of your art. That challenges your identity of 'artist'

What if you were born into a family of Scientologists?

What If you were born into an family of atheists? (chances are your genitalia wouldn't have been mutilated.)

And who knows what religion you would have stumbled upon then?

I challenge people's thoughts of what they believe simply because there a real questions that need real answers.

It's my belief that religion is stunting the growth of the human race.. and is why we're not on starships traveling throughout the galaxy..

People stop asking real questions like "How are we here? why? "What's out there?" because someone told them authoritively "God is out there.. God works in mysterious ways.. God did it.. Quit asking complex heretical questions.. it's all god god god.. and people if they do research it.. they research it as "HOW did god do it?"

What's this snake venom you speak of?? Your child was taken by god.. Because Satan attacked him in the form of a snake!

So.. don't bother figuring out that snakes are venomous.. or work on inventing an anti-venom because god and Satan are duking it out.

That's science vs. religion. That example PROBABLY happened at one point in our history and probably still in parts of the world.

We're evolving regardless.. Religion is becoming a smaller and smaller obstacle for man to overcome.

I love the fact there are people out there that do good under Religion..

I'm glad we all have the freedom to choose to believe in whatever we want.. from god to the flying spaghetti monster. whatever.. knock yourselves out..

I just take issue with creationist invading our school systems.. and whenever the line between church and state gets crossed.

It would be in religions best interest to stay on their side of the fence.

Oh.. and to keep up with the times, and make up new B.S. and revise the old B.S. to explain these things.

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Shane Glines
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Great post, Gary.
S.

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SNAKEBITE
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Gary, you know I agree with your points about religion. I know people in mental wards because of beliefs that are less crazy then the ones that fuel religion.

its not the questioning of religion that I have a problem with. its the aggression people take when they question religion. thats how wars start.

I personal believe religion can get in the way of a truly religious experience. ones connection to all things. thats "God" to me. connection to all things.

I use to be religious. for a minute. I was young and impressionable. wanted something to believe.
believing something gives one hope. hope can change ones attitude.

I don't think your beef is with religion, its with the people who use it to judge and control others. but your beefs ride that line as well.

you'll never get people to see your point if you're judging them...thats the foundation of things like the crusades.

now if you don't care if people see your point then cool, carry on.

I get it. it takes one to know one. I feel ya
but I think you're only gonna preach to the choir with your approach.

which I'm down for. your sentiments make me feel like I'm not alone. so again, I get it.

but I know religious people who do a lot of good cuz they have hope in their lives. if they didn't have hope they might not be so constructive in this life.

point is. we don't know whos right. ultimately we all have faith based beliefs. you have faith that you are right. even though, you might be wrong.
so you are a man of faith as well.

no religion or even science has absolute proof.
just current evidence to make us feel one way or another.

I believe we are all connected, guided by the intent of the galactic core, the Hunab Ku, sucking and pushing negative and positive energy or intent. the sun is our connection to the universe.
as it changes it vibrations, we change. since we are vibrations or energy fed from its light.
we can communicate with the universe through all things. even a rock has resonance of the past and future. ritual and meditation helps us with this connection.

sounds all kinda crazy. but I'm cool with being crazy. it gives me hope and peace that I'm intentional and so are my thoughts and beliefs.

the belief in money is crazy to me. the belief in the measurements in life. people going to a job they hate so they can afford these measurements
is a belief system that trumps the rest. one says they are christian, I'd say chances are you're more of a capitalist then a man of god. chances are you spend more time praising money then Jesus.
even if that praise comes in a form of stressing, worrying about how you're gonna pay the bills.

if people really followed the true word of this ideal of God instead of mistaken mans word for his
then this world would be better off.

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strawberry
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offbeat-

i should have clarified, you insult my family but not me personally. i'm the black sheep. i don't live by the bible or go to church. the reasons that you don't subscribe to religion are the same as mine. i've got too many questions, too many doubts, and ultimately much of the bible is so archaic that it inspires more questions than answers.

and i'd say that greed and a lust for power has hurt the advancement of the human race more gravely than any religion. the brightest minds are put to work building better bombs and designer drugs.

there is a difference between the truly religious, those who seek spiritual truth, a closer relationship with god, or whatever, and the pseudo-religious that are defending their institution's ideals at the cost of advancements in science or civil liberties. F the latter, i'm fine with the former.

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OFFBEAT
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The bible absolutely raises no questions.. and is completely understandable.. if you look at it as a work of fictional propaganda to teach morality to the masses.

But, if you look at it, as an authoritative way of how things are... and came into being.. there's no way to NOT be confused, and raise a ton of questions...it just means you have common sense and an average intelligence. I remember even as a kid.. I was like Cain and Abel married daughters of whom.. exactly?? I was told to keep my questions to myself.

I too, am the black sheep of my family, The fact that I don't have kids, and am not into watching sports (watching sweaty men play with balls) makes me the family queer in their eyes. And since I became an artist who moved to California to work on cartoons.. pretty much confirmed it in their eyes.

I'm sorry if I offended your family.. I didn't mean to offend you or your family.. though, if you're offended by the term "simple folk" that's more you than me.

I say the simpler the better! I wish I can unlearn 80% of the stuff I know.

Am I wrong in guessing that no one in your family, like mine, is a rocket scientist?

I'm guessing that, like mine.. are like 95% of the population that isn't what we'd identify as "above average intelligence"

Sure, they may seem smart to you or I, but we're in that 95% too. So, who are we to judge?

I'm at the border of knowing too much.. and seeing what a miserable existence that is... being constantly surrounded by morons.. and the only people you can talk to are miserable people too.

I can't get dumb fast enough. Ignorance truly is blissful.

Again.. if anything I say offends anyone.. I'm truly sorry.. i'm not trying to offend.. just waiting for a stronger argument than mine to make me rethink what I think.

..waiting patiently

...for years.

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SNAKEBITE
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thats your problem right there...waiting.
lol

and I don't know about you guys but I'm smart as sht.

if I wasn't , God wouldn't email me personally.

...just sayin...

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SNAKEBITE
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oh man, I just got a PS from God.

he said,
hey bro, tell the bruthas and sistas that he didn't write the bible. man did.

he also said, he likes a lot of the stories but we sure do have crazy imaginations...all he ever
said was to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"...all that other stuff was you guys.

hey, don't kill the messenger.

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SNAKEBITE
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or should I say

don't crucify the messenger

wink wink nudge nudge

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Charles
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The scientist/mathematician who developed the Big Bang Theory was Fr. Georges Lemaitre, a Catholic priest in Belgium.

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/science/sc0022.html

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OFFBEAT
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It is my humble opinion that the Big Bang was actually a collision of galaxies..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJRc37D2ZZY
http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=351

If we're in the middle of all that mess.. it looks as if the galaxy is expanding in some parts.. slowing down in other parts.. and retracting in others... no?

The Big Bang isn't a very good theory.. there was nothing before.. and an explosion somehow created everything. I can see how his religion influenced such a theory.

I could also see why Einstein said it was the best explanation he's ever heard about creation he's ever heard.. because what theory was before this? The whole God created everything in 7 days?

We're still in our infancy of understanding things.

But it deserves an 'A' for effort!! A great theory.

I'm not 100% sure that God doesn't exist.. just 95% ...it's an equally plausible theory that some superpowered being created all of this. And we're just it's sea monkeys.

I AM however, pretty convinced that man's depiction of God is way off the mark. And that people who claim to know the inner workings of God are now, and always have been people that are willing to take advantage of our desperation for an all powerful father figure.

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OFFBEAT
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...look into the deep field
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgg2tpUVbXQ&feature=related

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SNAKEBITE
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what if one had the most powerful telescope in the world and looked into the galaxy? one could see forever in this telescope.

I think that one would end up seeing ones own ass.

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SNAKEBITE
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and thats the source of all things.


ass

next time your praying to whatever god you're praying to. just remember, he/she is your ass.

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-FP-
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Ahem:

Einstein Letter on God Sells for $404,000

From the grave, Albert Einstein poured gasoline on the culture wars between science and religion this week.

A letter the physicist wrote in 1954 to the philosopher Eric Gutkind, in which he described the Bible as “pretty childish” and scoffed at the notion that the Jews could be a “chosen people,” sold for $404,000 at an auction in London. That was 25 times the presale estimate.

Einstein, as he says in his autobiographical notes, lost his religion at the age of 12, concluding that it was all a lie, and he never looked back. But he never lost his religious feeling about the apparent order of the universe or his intuitive connection with its mystery, which he savored. “The most incomprehensible thing about the universe is its comprehensibility,” he once said.

“If something is in me that can be called religious,” he wrote in another letter, in 1954, “then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as science can reveal it.”

Einstein consistently characterized the idea of a personal God who answers prayers as naive, and life after death as wishful thinking. But his continual references to God — as a metaphor for physical law; in his famous rebuke to quantum mechanics, “God doesn’t play dice”; and in lines like the endlessly repeated, “ Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind” — has led some wishful thinkers to try to put him in the camp of some kind of believer or even, not long ago, to paint him as an advocate of intelligent design.

Trying to distinguish between a personal God and a more cosmic force, Einstein described himself as an “agnostic” and “not an atheist,” which he associated with the same intolerance as religious fanatics. “They are creatures who — in their grudge against the traditional ‘opium for the people’ — cannot bear the music of the spheres.”

The problem of God, he said, “is too vast for our limited minds.”

Einstein’s latest words offer scant comfort to the traditionally faithful.

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Admit the validity of the never-ending process of scientific discovery, call it "god", put away the bibles, and everybody wins.

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Charles
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Why not keep science, keep the Bible, and listen to Marvin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aip7j1Uer2Q

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OFFBEAT
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A better debate than ours about the same topic..
AND it's between brother vs. brother...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5cxwq6QK7o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Uif4TYCGWw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR3QW-ub9CM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOsKxVMvTXw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sAxIDaIjdM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjUd0K3v23Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C88ai7-WCbU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8gTswFbKo0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcwGeol3qfI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgzI7PhUkwI

[cheers]

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Inkan
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We live in a 3-dimensional subspace that's part of a 4-D space. That's similar to saying you live on a spherical shell (2-D space) that's part of 3-D space. Time is the fourth dimension. What we perceive as gravity is actually our 3-D space curving in the 4-D space. Just like if you go straight North from the equator you collide at the same point, because the Earth is spherical, not because there's some force up North pulling you together. Since time and length,width,height are all parts of a 4-D space, you can't separate time from the other dimensions. So it makes no sense to talk about "before the Big Bang", any more than you can talk about what's at 10 miles North of the North Pole.
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OFFBEAT
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I hope Marvin Gaye has a song for that one.

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Charles
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As a matter of fact, I think he does.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aip7j1Uer2Q

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OFFBEAT
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I've been ordained!
http://www.themonastery.org/dev/cert/ulc_certificate_view.swf?id=06040811122660

Reverend Offbeat! from now on. [Big Grin]

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Squash Banana
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I have so, so much I want to say, but I don't want to pour oil on the fire and invite insult.

I will say this, though: Thank you, Charles. I notice that every time this subject crops up (and the argument looks the same every time), you have the most laconic, respectful, and level-headed statements I see. Hear, hear!

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OFFBEAT
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Bill Maher is getting Religulous..
http://www.apple.com/trailers/lions_gate/religulous/
[cheers]

The trailer makes a point, and I too, am nervous that a guy who believes in talking snakes is running the country.

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Charles
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What religious and non-religious fundamentalists have in common, is that both camps consider their own personal opinions to be fact.

The best lesson in religious tolerance I've ever heard came from an elderly Jewish woman I know who survived the Holocaust and 7 concentration camps. At her lowest, most despondent point in her experience, in desperate prayer asking God to take her life and end it all, she heard a voice in her mind clearly speak to her saying "You will not die here." Turned out the voice was right. Good luck convincing her this was not God. Good luck convincing her that there is no God.

She grew up in Turkey, among Muslims, Christians and Jews, just before the latter 2 of the 3 were forcefully evicted from the country in the 1920s. Her father, a very wise and considerate man, taught her in her youth, "Do not ridicule other people's religious beliefs, because you never know if they're right."

Too bad we don't have that kind of tolerant consideration in our society.

Listen to Marvin and kindly refrain from abusing the forums.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO15gjNojA8&feature=related

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SNAKEBITE
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that grilled cheese looked good.

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Jasen
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On that Bill Maher trailer, and that tiny clip with Bush... OMG that was the most embarrassed I've ever been for that man, not to mention it was the scariest thing I've seen in a long time. [Eek!] <-- x1000

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SNAKEBITE
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yeah, but that grilled cheese...yummy!

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