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Author Topic: Rant about trust
SNAKEBITE
IE # 101
Member # 17

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I'm so up to mutha ****in here with this industry. no, not just animation or comics, but just story telling. developing ideas
and tryin to build art into a way of life.

Can't trust anyone. people are so all about themselves they don't consider common sense **** or even **** that might not be common sense but still addressed and ignored.

I've been tryin to build my own IP for a few years now. doing all the work myself and tryin to find trust worthy and reliable people (who've I've helped in the past looking for tit for tat) and its just non stop disappointment.

Heres my latest example.

I finally found someone to do some 3D models for me. we addressed everything in the beginning including how
top secret this was.

he started strong, showing me mad respect and hard work right out the starting block. but not too long into it he faded away. ok cool, I get it, need to focus on **** that pays the bills. no problem. or maybe its not that, cool, Im patient.

two months go by. hey man, wheres the **** , its only one model? he replys, oh man I've been thinkin about you alot. don't worry I'm gonna get it done soon, Im doin it for a class project so it has to be done....

wha??? ****in classproject so it has to be done. two insults there. first, class project, what the **** is my development work doing in a class project? and two, why does it have to be done now, as opposed to it didn't have to be done earlier?

I'm ****in insulted and sick and tired of this crap. I've done nothing but shown people great personal respect when I work with them and professional curtesy and this is what I seem to get in return on a regular.

they always say if you want something done do it yourself, but thats ****in impossible. I need help. when building
**** people need help. you can't rely on yourself for everything, I beginning to burn the **** out and would like to find someone as reliable as I have been for others.

why can't I?

****!


ok, done for now. thanks for listening.


****!

--------------------
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www.artbysnakebite.com
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SNAKEBITE
IE # 101
Member # 17

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I should state for the record that this person is someone whos worked in the industry and is going back to school to learn more. So he's not an amateur.

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Steve Schnier
Member
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Hey Snakebite. My project has been underway for a year and a half. How do I motivate the people who are working with me to stick it out?

I've given them a chunk of the project. My editor owns 10%. My composer owns 10% The post house owns 10%, etc. (You have to be careful about how many points you give away.)

Everyone involved with the project knows that it will be a success - and they're working to make it as good as they can. Why? Because they have a stake in the outcome.

Simple. Make it worth people's while and they'll work hard for you.

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Fooksie
IE # 239
Member # 331

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That is a crazy story. Especially the part where your project, that should be confidential, are being used as a "project".
Going off track. Your website, artbysnakebite, is really solid.
Did you do it?

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" Every move a picture! "
Buddy Love

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OFFBEAT
IE # 39
Member # 873

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Sounds like you needed to get everything down in paper. Memories aren't something you can trust. Even if you were going into business with your own brother I would recommend doing it. If you agree at 20% at the beginning.. and when you're approaching the end.. he claims he's owed 30% Not that he's lying.. memories can't be trusted. That's when you pull out the deal memo.. point to the 20%.. point to his signature. Argument over.

People forget promises made, but they sure as hell remember signing a confidentiality paper. One that makes them legally liable for their actions.

Get EVERYTHING down on paper. Doesn't even have to be a fancy legal document.. just on a piece of paper.. I agree to do this, if this person does this.. by this time... if he doesn't do what he agrees then this happens.. etc.. sign.. dated.. make copies.. both of you have piece of mind.

Even if you never plan on taking it to court would hold up as an argument ender.

--------------------
"Get Rich, or Die Drawing!"

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Chris Roman
IE # 223
Member # 551

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I'll second the 'give'm a stake in the project' and add that it should be not only a financial stake, but a creative one. I think PIXAR manages to maintain a level of secrecy and high morale because everyone feels like they have a creative say in every project. Even though I'm not the director on the project I'm working on, I feel like if I have a good idea and bring it to the director, he'll listen and even incorporate it into the final film.

If someone is just an arm for your own creative vision, they don't have as much emotional connection to it, professionalism be damned.

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Steve Schnier
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That's right, Chris. My partners have a creative say in the project as well. Its worked out very well for everyone.
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KevinO
IE # 36
Member # 56

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I think I'd make sure I get your property back from this 'student' pro pronto and get someone else or just hang loose for bit. Make sure it passes out to no one else, especially if you don't want it out there as you most likely do not.
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SNAKEBITE
IE # 101
Member # 17

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Well, the project is so big and scope and work needed that giving out a percentage for one render of one vehicle seems silly at this point.

this person works in the business, is training to learn more and wanted to work on something with cool design to get their chops up. they knew I was working on something and volunteered to do the work even though
they knew it was case sensitive.

this is the part that gets me ultimately. I didn't ask anyone for help, I just told this person if they volunteer their time they have to respect the secret aspect of
development.

I understand paper work and ulitmately its my bad, but this was a testing level sort of thing and now this person has moved on to it being a personal class project.

we haven't got the chance to talk yet or hasn;t returned my email so Im gonna give this person the benefit of the doubt to change their mind.

Fooksie,
yeah I did the art, design and concept of the site and my partner and friend, Adrian Foster, programmed it in Flash.thanks


Steve,
I understanding sharing. I'm a big advocate of sharing. But so far no one that has helped me is in the world of deserving 10percent and when people do get there, like you said, you have to be careful with how much you give. I've always imagined my business outline to be like Saturn Cars. Micro percentage even down to the dude doing
the ******** work.

and again, this person asked me to help them learn how to build stuff designed by others. I'm not looking for handouts. I know what it takes to produce original content and help others build original content and at some point people have to prove they are worth the percentage I'm willing to share.

I consulted with my lawyer about drafting contracts with people and bottom line is there is nothing built yet to even project how much this person or that deserves.

I'm still in the development stage to approach venture capitol or to introduce some kind of content on a market in order to get order number 1 let alone how much percentage a person, who does one render, gets.


I was just venting and I understand where I messed up with this. it just sucks that people think that way.

just venting.

This person doesn't have the property, fortunately, just one concept for one vehicle. but still an important part of the vision.

I believe this person will change their mind once we talk.

just venting.peoples thinkin process pisses me off sometimes.

--------------------
contact@animationnation.com
www.artbysnakebite.com
www.myspace.com/mrbite
www.redskystudio.com
www.myspace.com/redskystudio

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SNAKEBITE
IE # 101
Member # 17

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So I just got off the phone.

its all good. I freaked out, they didn't have a problem, I just needed to remind them...hey, Im conditioned...Pavlov's dog, ya know...damn, I need a vacation.

what kills me is that I have this NDA I drafted up years ago just for this mess, hangin in front of me
laughing in my face.

good times.

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Animagus
IE # 49
Member # 279

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quote:
I think PIXAR manages to maintain a level of secrecy and high morale because everyone feels like they have a creative say in every project.
Yeah, but don't tell me that Pixar does NOT make every one of their staff sign a non-disclosure agreement. Don't you even have to sign one if you're dropping off your reel? You probably have to sign one if you're a plumber going in there to fix one of the toilets. I see a LOT of people's names in those credits at the end of their movies. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if taking certain jobs there entails a background check and security clearance. Also, I'm sure everyone at Pixar is grateful to be employed and would like to remain that way. And I'm sure there's a lot of loyalty.
Plus, don't they use a lot of proprietary software?
The idea is that someone like Snakebite could be taken advantage of (although this didn't turn out to be the case this time), because of his creativity, and the fact that he's not a major corporation with the legal muscle of Disney (although he does have a lawyer). And at this point, I don't think he's in a position to "fire" anybody since I don't know if he's an "employer".
I don't know. I've never been in the industry and other people here have, and maybe there have been cases of major studios having their secrets leaked before a film's release, but I doubt that even Pixar just hires you and says, "you're very being hired here means we trust you implicitly, and the trust will be strengthened when you see what a great atmosphere we have going here".
Again, I think the point is that it's more likely that the "little" man/woman could be taken advantage of. Just a response from someone from the outside.

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Chris Roman
IE # 223
Member # 551

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Actually, Animagus, it kinda is like that. Yes, there are NDA's, and even when visitors come in the visitor sign-in sheet has, in small letters, the NDA agreement.

But it's a very VERY relaxed atmosphere. Lemme put it this way:

In this day and age of blogging and the internet, even with NDA's, it would be very easy for anyone at PIXAR to reveal information without it being traced back to them. But no one does, because we love the company and the atmosphere so much. We all know, if more and more information starts to leak out, that atmosphere will change. So there's a great deal of trust here, especially with everyone that's hired, from the executives all the way down to the cleaning staff.

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SNAKEBITE
IE # 101
Member # 17

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yes, the human element, trust. I have found in this business even if you sign papers you still can be screwed.

I try to treat people with respect. I try to lead by inspiring people with my actions and I humble and thankful for any help.

thats why i initially freaked out. I feel much better now, but Im glad I put it out there. its a great topic to address and continue to talk about.

trust

in order to be a great leader, I must trust. if i have no trust then I will be paranoid and I see how paranoid people act.

hey, like I just did...I don't want to be that person, I want to trust.

so i have to let go. ofcourse thats not to say not to follow up on NDAs and things of that nature. But I like to stay as human as possible.

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OFFBEAT
IE # 39
Member # 873

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Psshawww... Pixar NDA's
 -  -  -

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"Get Rich, or Die Drawing!"

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Animagus
IE # 49
Member # 279

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Well, Offbeat, those are just DVD covers. Without watching the movies, I can't tell how much of the body of the original films was "borrowed". I'm sure someone is now working on a Direct to video CGI movie about "Wally the Robot", or "Wall-G", or something. Any of us could write a story and mimic the look of the promotional material that's been released. Will the movie itself have the same plot-points/surprises as the Pixar film? It's doubtful.

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SNAKEBITE
IE # 101
Member # 17

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When fighting copyright issues you have to prove that its more of infringment you have to prove that it cause confusion in the market...which these seem to do...so I guess it just doesn't matter anymore, every man for himself!!!!!

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Charles
Administrator
Member # 7

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Don't forget to include this Offbeat. A two way street.

 -

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Tobias A. Wolf
IE # 250
Member # 383

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Yeah, trust is a bitch. I'm a generalist to a painful degree sometimes, precisely for the fact that over the years I've learned that on a fundamental level most people are just plain flakey - especially in the last 10 yards. Even professionals. Crazy as it might sound you need a back-up plan in yourself. My advice; learn to model and light your own work.

You can always set up a verbal or legal prearrangement so if you have to finish anything uncompleted they see none of the benefits. Then you make it a wash for any effort they put in and you get free work.

It's hard to pass on the infliction of tenacity to others when it comes to your vision.

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SNAKEBITE
IE # 101
Member # 17

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yes i greed. I am a patient man.

is 6 months for one render normal?


I mean, at the end you can't make anyone do **** ...and if living by example and coming to an
agreement is not enough, it all comes back to cold
hard cash. right?right.

Im retarded. Im goin for the bar and then some.
I want to challenge the big boys when I put it on the table. THERE, I'll scream to the gods.lol

But at the same time I have to see if people
are serious. Do you really give percentages away
so soon?

in this case, this person volunteered to do one render. no percentages needed for that. sorry.

my problem is mostly understanding where this person head was at with thinking that. contract or no contract. this person knew but still thought, hey I'll use it for class.hahahaha

but its all good...this time...dun dun dun!

sometimes you got the blinders on and all you see is whats in front of you.

What a good topic, though. someones gonna learn something besides me.lol

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Charles
Administrator
Member # 7

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Sometimes when you cut someone in for a piece of the pie, it only makes matters worse. I've got a creed I go by. Don't take on a partner if what they have to offer is something you can hire them to do.

I've learned some hard lessons about trust. You can be as close as blood brothers and they'll still screw you. I think getting something down on paper would be a little helpful, such as an NDA. It'll reinforce the concept of confidentiality, but with some, that still doesn't make a difference.

Live and learn, bro, live and learn. Choose your friends and business associates wisely.

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SNAKEBITE
IE # 101
Member # 17

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Amen.

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Animagus
IE # 49
Member # 279

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quote:
In this day and age of blogging and the internet, even with NDA's, it would be very easy for anyone at PIXAR to reveal information without it being traced back to them.
So is there a place on the internet where one could get the plot details for the upcoming "Indiana Jones" movie? Or the "Bee Movie"? Or the "Star Trek" prequel? I don't doubt for a minute that Pixar is a great place to work, but they can't possibly be unique in their ability to maintain confidentiality and accountability. Other studios must have ways.
Also, I've never heard of a company with no disgruntled employees whatsoever where NOBODY is holding a grudge, but then again, I'd never heard of a movie studio where every one of their features becomes a blockbuster so there's no question that something very special does take place in Emeryville.

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SNAKEBITE
IE # 101
Member # 17

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its the trees.

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Chris Roman
IE # 223
Member # 551

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I could tell you dozens of stories...

...but I signed a NDA. Sorry.

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SNAKEBITE
IE # 101
Member # 17

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about trust, or trees?

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droosan
IE # 4
Member # 2225

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FWIW, I worked with a few Pixar ex-patriates on Nickelodeon's Barnyard. The gist I'd gotten of why they'd left was that they felt there were greater opportunities to advance in a smaller studio ..

----------

For my own part, I never discuss the stuff I'm working on with anyone, online or in RL .. whether I'd signed an NDA, or not; that's just common sense.

I don't even mention what project I'm 'currently' working on at a given time, until after it's been released for a while (and sometimes, not even then .. depending on how awful it turns out [Razz] )

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Chris Roman
IE # 223
Member # 551

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Actually, about advancement, I guess that would be the one caveat. When I was interviewing for a story position, I asked about how open they were to advancement - opportunities to direct and such. I was told they were looking for people who wanted to do the jobs they were hired for and not just looking to move up. Which I'm totally happy with - I want to be the best story artist I can, and if that's what I do for the rest of my life I'm happy for it. So I can see how some people would want to leave if they are looking to do something higher up on the production ladder.

At the same time, I've never worked anywhere that is so active in offering on-site classes to help you learn and advance your own knowledge of the whole pipeline. The Pixar University classes cover Maya, Renderman, lighting, animation, storyboarding, and even live-action filmmaking. IT's pretty great that it's a company philosophy to make sure all of it's employees have the opportunity to learn more about other jobs.

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SNAKEBITE
IE # 101
Member # 17

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yeah, but what about the trees?

...hahahaha

Hey Chris. that does sound cool. if you're down to do one thing and focus on mastering that then cool.
I can understand Pixars position to hire people
who don't want to move up. that can mean replacements to replace replacements on a regular
which could be a big pain as well as not very cost effective to have to constantly replace people that could effect productions.

I have done alot of work just to position myself to progress and alot of the time all it does is put me in the "what, you don't want to do this forever? NEXT!" situations.

its good to focus on ones intent and craft of choice.

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OFFBEAT
IE # 39
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quote:
So is there a place on the internet where one could get the plot details for the upcoming "Indiana Jones" movie?
http://www.aintitcool.com/

But From Wikipedia:

An extra in the film, Tyler Nelson, violated his nondisclosure agreement and gave an interview to the The Edmond Sun on September 17, 2007, which was then picked up by the mainstream media. In the interview, Nelson revealed several plot details from the film. Spielberg has yet to decide if he will cut Nelson's scene. At Nelson's request, The Edmond Sun subsequently pulled the story from its website. On October 2, 2007, a Superior Court order was filed finding that Nelson knowingly violated the agreement. The terms of the settlement were not disclosed.

On October 2, 2007, it was reported that a number of production photos and sensitive documents pertaining to the film's production budget were stolen from Steven Spielberg’s production office.An official with the Indiana Jones production reported the items missing on September 24 to the Sheriff's Department. Marvin Levy, Steven Spielberg's spokesman, said the director was concerned that the thieves would try to sell the materials, and on October 2, the people believed to be involved in the burglary sent out e-mails to several entertainment gossip websites offering to sell the images. According to IESB, TMZ.com obtained some of the stolen property and was on the verge of running the story on its TV division until Paramount lawyers stepped in. After Paramount was notified about the emails, they contacted sheriff's investigators. A member of the online press helped the detectives by posing as a potential buyer and setting up a meeting in West Hollywood. When the seller arrived, he was arrested on suspicion of receiving stolen property. On October 4, Roderick Eric Davis, age 37, was charged with one felony count of receiving stolen property.

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Chris Roman
IE # 223
Member # 551

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Sorry, Snake, the Lorax speaks for the trees! [Smile]
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SNAKEBITE
IE # 101
Member # 17

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[funny]

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