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Author
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Topic: "Conspiracy Theories" or "Why believe reality?"
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OFFBEAT
IE # 39
Member # 873
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posted
Jessie has the right to question.. and ask for proof just like any of us.
Documentaries like Loose Change, and Zeitgeist bring up tons of questions.. and if ANY of them sound wonky.. the rest get tossed out as "Conspiracy Theory B-S." This is where I take issue.
If 212 questions are raised.. it seems like opponents focus on the one they have an answer for.. and shoot all the others down with it.
While I think most conspiracy theories go too far (to their detriment).. they start entering the "Illuminati Zone".. I bail out too.
But the less fantastic points of Loose Change are overlooked.. and if focused on.. make a pretty compelling case.
For instance.. How is the fact that Condoleeza Rice warned mayor Willie Brown on 9/11 not headline news everyday until that question is answered??
How are the 'put options' on airline stocks on 9/11 not alarming the hell out of everyone??
Why is the fact that some of the "hijackers" on 9/11 are still alive and well today not alarming to anyone, and why hasn't that list been updated?
Why did George Bush and Dick Cheney refuse to go before the 9/11 commission without one another, and why did they refuse to speak under oath?
Why is it that when other aircraft crash into the ground and into buildings do less damage than the ones cause by 9/11??
If you take out the fantastic theory proposed in Loose Change.. and this is where I fault them.. (rerouting of airplanes.. unloading of passengers.. and replaced by drone planes, yadda yadda) and just analyze the collection of questions raised.. questions still left ignored and unanswered.. you'd have a pretty interesting documentary.
Don't attack such questions with hostility. It's unpatriotic.
Don't be so "Britney Spears" about trusting whatever comes out of the president's mouth.
Seeing that he has such a hard time thinking and speaking at the same time. (or speaking, and listening to his staff writers over his ear piece)
God, I can't believe he's our President.
C students have no business being President.
James Bond.. Obi Wan Kenobi.. now those would be good Presidents.
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"Get Rich, or Die Drawing!"
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OFFBEAT
IE # 39
Member # 873
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posted
This is how demolition experts blow away support columns..
Look what they found in the rubble of ground zero...
Sorry if that raises questions!
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"Get Rich, or Die Drawing!"
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Caracal
IE # 161
Member # 3024
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posted
The point I'm making Offbeat is that Jessie didn't ask the question. He just challenged you to prove your opinion.
So why aren't you challenging Jessie to prove your wrong?
Your expending ten times the energy, a hundred times the effort that he is to defend your position while asking him to expend no energy at all in the debate.
Sure your going to learn more about supporting your case by putting in the time and effort. But what is the point if the person your trying to convince isn't willing to debate?
Just something to think about man.
Cheers
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Caracal
IE # 161
Member # 3024
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posted
I'm gonna say this too. I have lived through a time of historical events and formed conclusions about those events as an eye witness. I don't have to prove my personal experience of the truth to anyone. Unless someone gives me credible evidence to alter my conclusion I trust my judgment over anyone elses.
Don't get side tracked by specious arguments. The burden of proof does not rest solely on your shoulders.
Cheers
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Greg B
IE # 118
Member # 886
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posted
Caracal, I too grew up during the turbulent years of the 60's. When you're a wee one and you see on tv the President having been assassinated you get a different outlook on life. Then came Malcolm X, MLK Jr., Bobby Kennedy, Vietnam War, Iran hostage crisis, Beirut, and on and on. Multiple oil crisis too.
I ended up in journalism and I got to see documents then that are only coming to light now. Way back when the mobsters and pseudo conservatives ( these are people who use conservatism to cover up their racism and sexism ) would literally have you killed if they didn't like your opinion. They still lynched people when I was a kid. I remember when being Jewish was like a crime in my hometown area.
So following the lock-step of the mainstream media stream would be insanity. You choose your own path and f-em' if they don't agree.
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http://www.boonestoons.com
http://www.spacefool.com
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Jessie
Member
Member # 1722
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posted
Akinney, Since when did asking for proof became 100% hostility? Get a grip!
In case you don't know it yet-- I'm just responding to a post. If somebody posts something about aliens and other questionable materials, at some point , there's bound to be scrutiny.. Eventually, someone will have to ask for some kind of evidence. Why would I have to disprove it when they're the ones claiming it in the first place?
Just inferring, If you really want your voice to be heard, get it out in the open! Instead of posting the same message over and over in here. Go to the high court tribunal, sue the bejesus of this administration, let them know that they are WRONG! Prove to them that you are right. Get it over it!
Btw, r u still sore after you got owned from that other thread?? Man, that was ages ago. Grow up already, I've got nothing personal against you-- just a difference of opinion! You argued something like " encouraging everyone to carry a gun around isn't the answer - it will amplify the problem" when you don't have the facts to support that claim. I just said, I reserve the right to defend myself, friends & my family without anyone telling me "you can't own a gun"---and I have the right to bear arms, ok? So try and take the 357 Magnum from my cold dead hands.
Caracal, ahh..... never mind.
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Chris Roman
IE # 223
Member # 551
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posted
Offbeat -
When were those pictures taken? Do you know the context? Especially since some of those seem to be taken in some kind of storage, don't you think it's possible that when they were clearing the debris they might have cut some of the I-Beams to make them easier to dismantle? I'm not trying to discredit the claims, just throwing in a skeptical eye.
What other buildings have you seen that have been hit by a jet to see how they collapse? Who's claiming this as a truth? A structural engineer? Or some guy in his basement on the internet?
This is the crux of conspiracy theory. Taking things like pictures or information, not putting them in any context, and jumping to conclusions.
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OFFBEAT
IE # 39
Member # 873
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posted
I want everyone who thinks conspiracy theories are completely fiction to read about how the federal reserve came into being...
It reads like an X-files episode (without bigfooted aliens)
Now.. if something that big and important can happen.. under the noses of still the majority of Americans.. you'd have to be a fool to say conspiracy theories are impossible.
Give me some time.. and I'll come up with a list of historical events that are equally as strange.
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"Get Rich, or Die Drawing!"
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OFFBEAT
IE # 39
Member # 873
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posted
quote:
don't you think it's possible that when they were clearing the debris they might have cut some of the I-Beams to make them easier to dismantle?
Of course it's possible...it's the most likely answer too. It was what I thought at first.. but I kept reading stories of the first rescue workers to arrive on the scene witnessing them.
I don't mean to shift all the focus on the beams entirely. Eyewitness isn't the most reliable source.
I should have stopped at Condoleeza Rice warning mayor Willie Brown.
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"Get Rich, or Die Drawing!"
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OFFBEAT
IE # 39
Member # 873
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posted
BTW.. I'm not saying the WTC was an inside job... as of right now, there isn't an argument that has swayed me completely.
I think 9/11 happened exactly they way they said it did..
But I'm also not ignoring evidence, or arguments stating otherwise.
It's all about the inconsistantcies.
Like for instance.. they said there were no demolitions or controlled explosions in the wtc.. but here is John Kerry.. saying that he does KNOW that they were worried about the building falling.. so the demolished it as a safety precaution...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wn4Yx1MTgfQ
That's the first time I heard that. That raises questions like.. Doesn't it take a long time to set up demolitions?? Amazingly fast rush job.. especially in a building deemed 'unsafe' those are brave workers, They must've paid them $10,000/hour. Nice that there was a place in the New York area they had all this demolition on hand.. enough to take down WTC 7.
Usually they have to order that stuff.
Or Is he talking out of his *ss??
Either explanation is noteworthy to me.. call me nutty.
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"Get Rich, or Die Drawing!"
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Chris Roman
IE # 223
Member # 551
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posted
I watched the video you linked. Kerry says he knows the 'wall' was a danger so they brought it down 'in a controlled fashion'.
1) He's a politician. Was he involved in the 9/11 investigations? If not, I'd say he's talking out of his *ss.
2) He never said a building. He said a wall. Obviously the whole building came down. Why did he say 'wall'? Again, this leads me back to the *ss theory.
3) From my limited knowledge of demolitions (i.e. none) it seems most building implosions are done to make the building safely implode. Considering all the destruction around the WTC, maybe they didn't bother with worrying about damaging the debris field and threw in a bunch of c-4. Hell the building was probably very close to falling at that point and may have only needed a little to push it over.
I don't deny that conspiracies have existed. JOhn Wilkes Booth conspired to kill Lincoln. Oh, but what about those missing pages in his diary!? They MUST have been about how he was in league with the ALIENS and the ILLUMINATI to remove Lincoln.
More often than not these theories are based on wild speculation gleaned from a series of facts taken out of context. Never is any other possibility presented.
For example, the stock sell off of the airlines. The ONLY explanation I've heard is that someone heard 9/11 was going to happen ahead of time and sold off all that stock. Is there another explanation? Has anyone offered one?
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akinney
IE # 167
Member # 3050
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posted
just wondering why you are always negative and you just proved my point that that is all you are capable of
you really owned me - i still think about it. aren't you late for study hall? that's how you come off anyway - a bratty little high school kid on too much red bull. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Chris Roman
IE # 223
Member # 551
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posted
akinney, who are you talking to?
Greg - I just did a quick Google about 'stock' and '9/11' and found one explanation:
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/6/2/62018.shtml
quote:
The downward trend in the airline stocks was backed up in the pre-Sept. 11 trading picture.
Insight reported that there were repeated spikes in put options on American Airlines during the year before Sept. 11 (June 19 with 2,951 puts, June 15 with 1,144 puts, April 16 with 1,019 and Jan. 8 with 1,315 puts). In the same period, United Airlines had slightly more action (Aug. 8 with 1,678 puts, July 20 with 2,995, April 6 with 8,212 and March 13 with 8,072).
I can only assume INSIGHT is the magazine published by the Washington Post.
So it seems the alternate explanation is that the number of PUTS on AA and United was not as unusual as some would claim.
I haven't heard ONE 'truther' lay out how many put options were made on the airlines leading up to 9/11, only that a large number of puts were made the day before. Again, facts taken out of context.
Don't get me wrong, I love conspiracy theories. But they're also fun to poke hole in! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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OFFBEAT
IE # 39
Member # 873
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posted
At one time.. whenever people reported multiple explosions within the WTC.. they were considered conspiracy theory nutjobs
Does that include this guy.. Michael Rodriguez considered to be "The Hero of 9/11??"
http://bigsmallvillage.com/media/rodriguez_911.wmv
He re-tells his experiences of the WTC on 9/11.
Is he a conspiracy theorist nutjob??
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"Get Rich, or Die Drawing!"
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Greg B
IE # 118
Member # 886
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posted
Offbeat, our pal Jeff Rense was one of if not the first to interview Rodriguez in depth. No one else would put him on the air! Jeff told me the day he was going to interview him to tell everyone to listen as we wouldn't believe his story. I believed his story because many, many of my friends and family were at the scene of the attacks and their stories corroborate.
It's gonna take me many years to get over this disaster. Each day is a struggle. I lost many friends and family on that day and I will never accept the official explanation fully. I won't accept all the conspiracy theories fully either. The investigation into this disaster has been a long, long, and excruciatingly painful journey for us and we won't rest til justice is met.
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http://www.boonestoons.com
http://www.spacefool.com
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Chris Roman
IE # 223
Member # 551
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posted
Greg I watched the whole video. Very compelling. At least he's not throwing in anecdotes he didn't experience himself. And he's not throwing out his own conclusions... in fact he points out a few times that he's not an expert, which I found helped his case.
It proves that there are issues that need to be looked into and gotten to the bottom of. This guy, Rodriguez, he's got a case.
I have issue with the guys on the outside looking in through their own prism.
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Chris Roman
IE # 223
Member # 551
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posted
Unfortunately, the website listed on the lecturn also reveals that both George Bush and Bill Clinton,
in addition to being behind 9/11, attend bizarre occult ceremonies featuring
ritual human sacrifice and wild homosexual orgies that are links
to secret societies going back to ancient Egypt and Babylon.
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Tobias A. Wolf
IE # 250
Member # 383
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posted
The best conspiracy allusions don't offer any answers, they only put forth the best questions. It's like Thomas Pynchon said, “If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers”. Compelling questions are an answer unto themselves, in that they open up a path to greater understanding. And facts are only as good as they have been questioned.
If the science behind the belief in Global Warming is up for debate and serious skepticism in this country, why stop there? It could be said that the events of 9/11 have more influence in shaping foreign and domestic policy today in all of our branches of government than the fear of Global Warming. So why would it be odd it to use that same amount of skepticism as it relates to scientific data and the accepted narrative of 9/11?
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Greg B
IE # 118
Member # 886
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posted
Chris, I'll ask Rodriguez what else is going on regarding his case.
A pal of mine, a NYPD detective was one of the first cops on the scene. To this day he can't talk fully about what he saw. The horror of what happened really messed him up. I was on the air for days on end trying to find out what was going on back in NY at that time. We were live on 3 radio stations and the web plus a dozen tv stations were tied in from the U.S. and Canada an we were chatting overseas as well.
I tried to get back to NY and no planes, trains and I said to our audience if the Pony Express was still running. One of our guests told me he was a large horse owner and had ranches and friends all over the country and asked me how many horses did I need. That's the kind of patriotism and neighborly concern we had at that time. Now here is what happened BEFORE what later became a conspiracy theory. My cousin told me to stay in Los Angeles. He reminded me that him being an expert in construction that the towers had all sorts of nasty building materials in them from asbestos to various particulate material. He said I didn't want to be anywhere near there for weeks and after several rains. People started getting respirator illnesses during and after 9/11. When the firefighters, rescue workers, rescue dog owners, public were complaining and seeking treatment it was a 'conspiracy theory' that they were sick. Anyone remember that? Far too often the truth is compartmentalized into a 'conspiracy theory' because the greed and cowardice of evil men.
Not all of us walk lock-step, rank and file. Some of us have critical thought and it's good we have a legal right to.
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http://www.boonestoons.com
http://www.spacefool.com
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Greg B
IE # 118
Member # 886
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posted
Oh, and I forgot, the #1 reason we know there's a bigger conspiracy regarding 9/11 is because of the typical bullsh1t response from the authorities:
" A black guy did it! "
That's one of the oldest tricks in the book to throw off cops from the trail and get the media hopping. Just say, " A black guy did it! " especially one you used to fund to be a terrorist.
As long as the news headlines focus on two things:
A rich famous black guy in trouble and a dumb irresponsible famous white girl in trouble we'll never have to worry about global criminals running amok.
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http://www.boonestoons.com
http://www.spacefool.com
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OFFBEAT
IE # 39
Member # 873
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posted
...a ...black guy?... did it?
What? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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"Get Rich, or Die Drawing!"
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Caracal
IE # 161
Member # 3024
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posted
quote:
Offbeat, you also have the option to backup ALL of your claims anytime, as in hard evidence, solid facts and present them in the Supreme Court of the United States of America. Maybe, you have a better chances there than here.
I don't any intention to seek the truth or ask for evidence anywhere in this statement.
I seems to me your telling Offbeat not to post his opinion unless he can proves to you beyond the shadow of a doubt that he is correct.
Where's your challange to his statements? You still haven't rufuted a single thing he's said.
Cheers
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Caracal
IE # 161
Member # 3024
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posted
Oh yeah Jessie as far as my debate with Lefty I won that debate in case you hadn't noticed. He wasn't able to refute my position. In fact president Bush confirmed my position.
I didn't get owned by anyone. I owned up to my own mistake. Which is a sign of being a grown up in my book. As for growing up, well seeing as your the one following me into my gallery thread (and not to talk about art ,oh no)whose the one not acting like an adult? Well maybe an adult just a creepy one.
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eboles
IE # 266
Member # 917
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posted
When comments get personal , it's probably one of those matters best sorted out in private emails. And a compliment's a compliment as far as I'd be concerned.
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Caracal
IE # 161
Member # 3024
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posted
Greg you really lost me on that last one! Some clarification please?
Cheers
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Caracal
IE # 161
Member # 3024
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posted
Yeah Eboles probably right. Sometimes gotta put a bright spotlight on an issue even if your fingers get burned. I'm tapped out.
Cheers
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LeftyMcKay
IE # 168
Member # 2558
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posted
Caracal, I agree with you that owning up to one's mistakes is a sign of being a grown up (and you're you be commended for it), but I find it rather childish for you to verbally bow out of a discussion in one thread and then declare in another that you somehow "won".
Furthermore, you've repeated your earlier mistake of not reading the responses here clearly. If you look back, it seems to me that Jessie's comment about being "owned" was directed at akinney, not you.
If I'm wrong I hope that Jessie will correct me.
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Jessie
Member
Member # 1722
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posted
Funny that you have to drag Lefty here;
In your own words from another thread;
"Lefty your absolutely right. I really messed up. I re read you comment and I saw my mistake and you have my apology."
Hate to tell you this but, you just got = OWNED. ( btw, that should be "you're" rather than "your", and on the next sentence; there should be an "r" on the you. Didn't you say you're the adult here?, tsk-tsk)
Now, before you suffer another complete ownage on this very thread we're in, here's your chance; These are the claims right here;
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Roosevelt practically egged Japan on to attack us. And then acted surprised when they bombed pearl harbor.
It's just politics.. this is just how it's done.
The gulf of Tonkin which launched us into Vietnam was a false flag attack.. which never even happened. False reports was all it took to launch us into Vietnam.
NOW.. would I be mad if I found out that 9/11 (not saying it was/wasn't) was a false flag operation to launch us into a worth while and just war.. Like.. say the Russian nuclear superpower didn't disband.. and they teamed up with china.. but the rest of the world was on their side.. and somehow got the world to go against capitalism.. I would completely understand the use of 9/11 as a false flag operation and I would understand that is what it would take to get the support of the world behind us... if it was a just war.
Problem being.. this is not a worth while war. This is an invasion of a country for its natural resources. It's a bank robbery of military scale.
It's a bunch of lobbyists influencing a political party and using OUR resources to capitalize on a terrorist attack to do their will... or at least that is how it appears.
I know the philosophies behind the neo-cons. They think we need an enemy at all times to be as productive as we are. I disagree with this.. but i'm not a leader. Have we become so hungry that we have to war with someone every 10 years to maintain our comfortable lifestyles??
This is definitely an example of the school bully picking on the kid with asthma.
One thing this war is not.. is avenging the 9/11 tragedy or fighting terrorism.. that may be the sub-plot.. but they (by their own actions) have USED terrorism as a false reason and a license to wage and stay in war... they'll determine when terrorism is defeated as soon as they are finished taking what they want, setting up their management in Iraq. I bet they find Osama Bin Laden pretty damn fast when they do.
We've become a war-mongering nation. And what sucks is.. the more I think about it.. the more.. normal i'm starting to think that is. I don't think our race is ready on an evolutionary scale for peace. The longest period in our history that we've gone without war was 60 years.
I just think it's sh*tty. War is normal.. but I don't like it. I want it to change... but people keep churning out greedy loveless children.
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Ok, Caracal --Would you care to defend each and everyone of them with all the supporting evidence? Explain how did some people come up with these conclusions? Why should I believe the war in Iraq is wrong? -- present the FACTS to support them; pertinent info; dates, key people, receipts, investigative reports, research materials, witnesses, interviews, authenticated documents , videos , photographs, dossiers, hard evidence, affidavits, method of operations, historical accounts, legal accounts, minutes, everything.
Who and where are these greedy loveless children??? Can you identify some of them and post it here?? C'mon, Let's have it?
But, if you decide to go down with just personal attacks, email me; -- Gfuran_us@aol.com
…and stalking?? What's the matter? Did I hurt your numb feelings or something? Wait a minute, let's back up a bit here; Count how many posts you have here against me, what did I say to offend you? .. In fact, I even praised your artwork in a genuine manner which is very cool btw!
I also meant no disrespect to Offbeat when I posted that comment; just implying == he has the option to present his case to court only "if he wants to" kinda sarcastic of me I know but then, what he said may be deliberated-- he could be still right you know. Of course, if his theories were found to be absolutely true and factual -- then, we're done, Bush is out, you guys live happily ever after! ( like that, huh?) As of now, the evidence he has is pretty whacked -- sorry, no dice! I was talking to him (Offbeat) then you appeared out of nowhere then started bugging me.. So, who's stalking now?? Anyway, Rant all you want but without compelling evidence, doesn't constitute to a thing. I will counterpoint some other posts here AFTER-- you presented what I've asked. After all, you're the one who wants the debate to drag on in the first place.
I had no bad intentions coming here , my idea was to question. Get some clarification maybe, because I'm missing something. One of the reasons why EVIDENCE is essential to a discussion is to minimize the bull among the threads;
If there are over 2000 posts about extra terrestial life -- wouldn't you be expecting some kind a proof of the matter? otherwise we'd be discussing over nothing. When somebody says he did this , he did that, I'm related to this famous person, etc, I used to be the best so and so … ok then, where's the proof ??? ; "Gerald Ford is the best president ever"
O Rly?, so back it up , how did he top the other US presidents??? A more accurate statement would be-- he's truly a great president or he's an excellent leader, or I agree he's one of the better ones, better than GWB for sure but, other US presidents have accomplished more . In comparison with the other US presidents in history, he's faaaar from the best. If you say you're smarter than anybody else here then, PROVE IT! Let's see your Summa Cum laude certificates, stock options, million dollar inventions, etc.. If there are 3000 anti bush threads, so what?- then, take him out the equation already, what're you guys waiting for? Does anybody care what Bush did or didn't do? Do these millions of hate bush propaganda here change anything? How does that solve anything in this case, Why don't you just go to the White House, if you really think he has no right to be there and present your case , or join the Talibans, Al Queda whatever , I don't care just get it over with! It's really annoying to read over and over the same message without any proper action albeit facts for that matter to support your argument. If you think evidence is only for the birds then, no one will take you seriously ever cuz you-can't-prove-no-shti!
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eboles
IE # 266
Member # 917
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posted
Jessie, Offbeat is speaking in a lot of generalities rather than claiming any sort of truth. You surely don't seriously expect him to come back with a referenced list of 'greedy, loveless children'. If there's anything specific that you take issue with, don't understand, or want to call him out on, you should do just that. It makes for more useful and efficient debate.
At this stage, I believe the burden of proof is on anyone who still maintains the belief that the Iraq war has been in any way worthwhile or was even justified. To anyone who has been paying attention and following these events, it's pretty much become an accepted truth that the war was waged on a pretext. At the very least, it was poor judgement.
George Bush said it himself: "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me". The actions of his administration have cast a doubt on many of the official positions taken by the U.S., and it's general role in global politics.
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Caracal
IE # 161
Member # 3024
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posted
Jessie
I don't see anything in your initial statement which I have mentioned that appears to be a question asking for clarification or truth. It appears rather to be dismissing Offbeats opinions out of hand. I challenged you repeatedly to refute Offbeats opinion. You didn't. I pointed out Offbeat was doing all the work defending his position and asked why because you were not engaging in a debate.
I wanted to see what the forum response was to these kinds of questions. Now I know.
As to my mistaking your posting to Akinny and not me. OOps. Well it's all true so I'm not too embarassed.
As to your post in my gallery thread I'll have to see what I can do to block you from this kind of behavior. In my book it's stalking.
Hey feel free to have the last word.
Cheers
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LeftyMcKay
IE # 168
Member # 2558
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posted
Caracal, it sounds like you've lost a few tiles on your heat shield. Jessie pays your work a compliment in another thread and you accuse him of stalking? Are you serious? I suppose your Progressive "cut and run" policy is easier than apologizing for overreacting again. To which thread should we look for your declaration of victory here?
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OFFBEAT
IE # 39
Member # 873
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posted
Flight 93
Footage that I remember which has never aired again on television..> http://youtube.com/watch?v=JZekosYOmXc
That's the first time a plane crash left little to no debris.
Here's what Rumsfeld slipped.. I mean said about flight 93 ..Oops!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6Xoxaf1Al0
Now, I COMPLETELY understand them covering that up.. and agree with the cover-up. If they came out and said that we shot down flight 93.. everyone's panties would be in a pinch.
Like I said.. I don't think 9/11 was planned by Bush or the Neo cons.. but the same way I don't think Pearl Harbor was planned by FDR.
But dwelling on the 9/11 conspiracy takes away energy from the conspiracy that is happening right in front of our faces right now...
That being WHY are we in Iraq when they had nothing to do with 9/11?
I want that question answered. ...With proof.
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"Get Rich, or Die Drawing!"
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LeftyMcKay
IE # 168
Member # 2558
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posted
quote:
8-9 of the 14 9/11 Hijackers still alive...
Yeah, and Gary Clair and Greg Boone aren't artists living in California!
http://www.nyltcb.com/principals.shtml
http://hsvirginia.scout.com/a.z?s=412&p=8&c=1&nid=1129431
I just proved it!
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
And how is President Bush stating that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 "the ultimate "shut the f- up" to Bush supporters"? 3 years ago I posted a link to President Bush making that statement. For the umpteenth time - the war in Iraq is not the war against the people directly behind 9/11. It's a war to prevent like minded people from committing the same type of atrocity.
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