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» AnimationNation   » SideTopics   » "Conspiracy Theories" or "Why believe reality?" (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: "Conspiracy Theories" or "Why believe reality?"
JATG
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Oh good grief. One conspiracy theory gets debunked here and the response seems to be "Oh yeah? Well, what about THIS one?"

Good grief folks. Try reading the absolutely thorough debunking of every insane Troofer theory that Popular Mechanics did...

Popular Mechanics Debunking 9-11.

...and when you're done with that ask yourself why you'd rather believe every whack job conspiracy nut theory rather than face cold bone numbing reality.

I could write on and on about how people seem more inclined to believe a conspiracy because somehow it gives them more comfort than what actually happened...

It's much more comforting to some to believe that there MUST have been some huge cabalistic plan to kill JFK...whether it be communists or LBJ... rather than the scary reality of the world. A lone disaffected nutbar could take down the leader of the free world.

"Pull your little finger and..." POP! "You can change the world."

Or that 19 young Muslim men could actually highjack FOUR of OUR airplanes with BOX CUTTERS and take down the World Trade towers, punch a hole in the Pentagon and were it not for a few remarkable Americans in an act of incredible heroism took down a fourth plane and left it smoking in a field rather than hit another target in DC.

If we had caught them before they ever boarded the plane we might still be snickering at what a silly backwards plan it appeared. Box cutters? Really?! Oh come ON! Silly Muslim extremists. Kee hee hee.

The belief in a conspiracy theory gives meaning to the meaningless...and regardless of facts people seem unwilling to give it up.

However rather than typing on and on about it ... this essay says it much more eloquently than I:

Seeing the Unseen

Can we all put our tinfoil hats away now?

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Ganklin
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its gonna be september in a few more days...its time for all the conspiracy theorists as well as the propaganda drumming to start up again.

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-FP-
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I'm skipping the whole 9-11 argy, but here's an interesting, incidental bit from the article:

>>If you further believe that the Kennedy Assassination was ...a coup d'etat orchestrated by Johnson or Castro or the Mob, then you believe that your government is willing to kill (or at least cover up the killing of) a man -- the duly elected President of the United States -- in order for some shadow figure to gain power.

What military man could order such a thing? ...

There's only one kind of person that can believe a group of U.S. military officers would follow such an order: people who don't know any U.S. military officers.<<


...which takes us back around again to at least one documented almost-incident:

PROJECT NORTHWOODS (there are many more links and some books, if you care to look and decide for yourself what sounds plausible and what doesn't)

History, regarded from a comfortably-dead distance, has shown time and again that "conspiracies" are pretty much the rule in government. Why are things supposed to be different now?

Daring to wonder if indeed 911 and other such incidents could possibly be the work of parties other than those to whom they were officially attributed, and attempting to investigate and verify the claims made by spokespersons of authority, provokes a surprising, almost fearful hostility. What harm can these questions pose?

It's too bad that rational suspicions are drowned out by the hysterical pandering of authors and attention-whores who build irrelevant, elaborate, easily-sold fantasies around what should be a simple presentation of sensible, direct questions. Any reasonable, substantial doubt is conveniently obscured by crazy talk. Propagandists don't have to do any work. The market does it for them.

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OFFBEAT
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So, you're asking us to believe everything we're told, and question nothing??

Sorry!

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Brian Reynolds
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quote:
Daring to wonder if indeed 911 and other such incidents could possibly be the work of parties other than those to whom they were officially attributed, and attempting to investigate and verify the claims made by spokespersons of authority, provokes a surprising, almost fearful hostility. What harm can these questions pose?
The harm comes in the breakdown of respect and trust for authoritative & knowledgable experts and replaces it with paranoia, ie: a "sky-is-falling" fervent belief in nefarious hidden agendas.

There are numerous demonstrated virtues to keeping a skeptical eye on events of importance, such as Watergate and Vietnam, but that's investigative reporting and isn't where the problem lies. Investigative reporting implies a willingness to accept the qualitative results you find through comprehensive research. Conspiracy theories on the other hand can most often be recognized as a corresponding refusal to accept the results which contradict a predetermined expectation, or alternately an understanding that a 10% doubt SHOULD undermine a 90% explanation. The insidious problem of CT's is that they continue to persist and influence people because of the widespread acceptance of the notion that questioning everything IS completely harmless. When the theory involves relatively innocuous subjects like the Bermuda Triangle you can ignore the true-believers safely because their actions don't influence important decisions, but where 9/11 is concerned you're talking about a level of distrust in the government so large as to render someone incapable of belief in the good faith of their fellow man.

THAT is harmful, and damnably scary stuff.

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SNAKEBITE
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theres experts on both sides of the conspiracy argument...and really, check out history, men have being assinating other men for power for a long time now.
FDR knew about pearl habor but knew it would force congress to go to war, which he wanted.

Leaders and people in power have historically done some fuked up stuff for control. you don't believe that then I think thats more dangerous than 14 terrorists with box cutters...as silly as that is not.

personally I find NO comfort in thinking about conspiracies. It doesn't make anything easier. it makes it harder.

But again, theres experts on both sides of the gun.

and I don't know if JFK is a good example to prove your point. but then again, it sounds like you don't question much other than the people questioning the questions you don't question.

and if you don't have distrust for your fellow man, you have not been paying attention. read history, mans not trust worthy.

I don't know, sounds all naive to me.

God save the Queen!

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Chris Roman
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quote:
Milhouse: The Rand Corporation, in conjuction with the saucer people, under the supervision of the reverse vampires, are forcing our parents to go to bed early in a fiendish plot to eliminate the meal of dinner!
I used to think that, because the Moon never turned it's dark side toward the earth, that it was actually a giant UFO monitoring us.

One of my favorite comics is the 'Big Bokk of Conspiracies'. And my favorite fodder for conspiracies are the weird coincidences, like Lincoln having a secretary named Kennedy, and Kennedy having a secretary named Lincoln, or Lincoln being assassinated in Ford Theatre, and Kennedy being assassinated in a Ford.

It's all about learning WHO is putting forth the doubt and claiming conspiracy. It's worth it in this day and age to be a bipartisan skeptic.

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JATG
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quote:
So, you're asking us to believe everything we're told, and question nothing??
Hmmm...going back through my post I don't think I ever said anything like that. Heck going through all my pasts posts I don't think I've said anything remotely like that. I think taking everything with a grain of salt and looking at things oneself is a pretty healthy philosophy.

There is a point though where the questioning just becomes silly and becomes more about the conspiracy theorist than the actual subject being debated.

Nor, Snakey, do I think i'm like the gilliganesque phrase you've painted me, poetical as it is:
quote:
"you don't question much other than the people questioning the questions you don't question."
Sounds like a song lyric man...I'll have to play with that a bit. Niiice. [Smile]

I think I've had a heaping helping of distrust of my fellow man, I'm well aware of history and corruption through the ages and I have plenty of distrust for government...regardless of who is in charge, thanks. The problem I have with conspiracies is only one person can keep a secret.
The bigger and crazier the theory the more people would have to be involved and there's no way they'd all keep silent.

I do think there is something pathological and fundamentally ...CRAZY... about people who scream at shadows repeatedly no matter how often the light of truth gets shone at them. How many times do things need to be debunked before it becomes ridiculous...the problem with debating most of them is akin to that analogy of wrestling a pig.


Sure 'the Truth is Out There"...and here's some of it:

The holocaust was real.
Oswald pulled the trigger all by his very own self.
There is no Loch Ness monster.
Prince Albert wasn't Jack the Ripper
Paul McCartney wasn't replaced by a look alike.
We did go to the moon.
Princess Diana's drunk driver drove them into a wall fleeing the paprazzi.
4 planes were hijacked by 19 Muslim extremists and flew them into buildings.

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SNAKEBITE
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as long as your pay me royalties you can use my song lyric.lol

yeah, I hear ya. but if you're debating the examples you just left then consider me out of the debate. I don't argue any of those things...well, Oswald had help....but I don't really care.

But if you want to debate why we are in Iraq, how our tax system is illegal, how the two party system is designed to screw you no matter what, why the world trade towers fell when designed not to under extreme conditions(including the ones that weren't touched by the planes), how religion has manipulated a whole race using fear of a god or any other of those types of conspiracies then im in.

you say you have plenty of distrust of government but you won't entertain that government people keep secrets and that they conspire to have control...really? how could you say both?

or maybe you are in the business to say conspiracy theories fall in the line of a conspiracy...then you would be a conspiracy theorist who believe people conspire to come up with conspiracies to fool people into thinking their government conspires against them...oh its a vicious cycle.lol

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Jasen
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http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=98c_1187985134

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Charles
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Conspiracy theorists tend not to accept evidence when they've been proven wrong, while people on the other side of the spectrum tend not to accept any evidence that might be true or even take the time to look at it if it threatens their core beliefs. It's a balance.

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Tobias A. Wolf
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For me, narratives that are conspiratorial or accepted have to be weighed in the light of the advantages those stories might give the author. Whether they be monetary risk management, potential monetary gains, fame lust, or other.

I think a lot of the cynicism and willingness to believe in such theories is a direct reaction to the 180° truth turn tactic employed by so many public relations strategies in politics and corporate image maintenance today. Where you identity your points of weakness and get ahead of the opposition in defining them by amplifying them into defining strengths. It's a pretty genius strategy, as best exemplified by Karl Rove in his management of the image of George W. Bush.

Today by and large, it's a really worn out and transparent approach to public perception sculpting. But it wasn't so much in the short past, as it fooled a lot of people. And I think given the discovery of it's limitations by many (i.e. they actually figured out the tactic), it makes a reexamination of the popular narrative of 911 is called a valid pursuit. As it begs the questions: was this tactic used to sell the popular narrative of this event as well? And if so, in what way?

**edited for spelling**

[ August 24, 2007, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: the Moderator ]

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Greg B
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Conspiracy theories go way back to the days of old.

I recall from history class how ridiculous people thought it was that the Earth was round. That went on for centuries and people who proposed such an insane theory were put to death by churches no less.

Some people cower in the conventional. Any alternate viewpoint is shunned and violently opposed. Often they result in ridicule of the theorist or idealist. Going with the group is safe but humanity never advances from fear.

It is very difficult for some of us to entertain the idea that others' viewpoints and opinions and observations may be correct even though they fly in the face of our own deep rooted beliefs.

I deal with conspiracy theorists on a daily basis. It's entertaining. Mayhaps I joke too much about it. However, I worked for years under some of the best journalists out there and never got reprimanded. Clean work record and even got a perfect attendance award from our publisher. In news when I grew up, if you screwed up once you got the boot and I sure saw a bunch of people get the boot.

Everyday I get to chat with scientists from most fields. I feel fortunate to do so. I grew up a hardbit skeptic. I didn't believe anything I couldn't put in a test tube and I had to realize it was because I was so closed minded it was turning me into something robotic. It took the conservatives on staff to get me to loosen up. It was the conservatives who got me to look at things differently. Why? Because real conservatives are religious and don't always fit in with the conventional.

Years later working for another magazine I again was surrounded by very conservative folks who were more conspiracy theorists than I'd ever met. They were no joke either. Most were veteran military and intelligence community agents. I was blown away that they trusted nothing in our government. I was in the minority. No I didn't buy Oswald as the only person involved in the JFK murder and neither did the official panels years following the assassination. No big thing there.

MLK Jr., Malcolm X, Medger Evers and one after another. When you grow up with an assassination a year you get suspicious.

It's all about balance. Not being so cowardly you can't see another's point of view and not being so unstable that one can't stand one's ground.

In the U.S. we have the advantage that we can look at things and form unconventional opinions. That we can recognize that our government and our press not only can be wrong but do so willingly for any number or reasons. That's documented fact and as one who has ordered thousands of FOIA files I can tell you.

Trust but verify. Don't do investigation by proclamation. You have the birthright to question and write and speak your opinions no matter how ridiculous they may be to others.

Remember, back in the 1930's no one listened to the conspiracy theories that some loud mouth named Adolph Hitler and his thugs a group called the NAZIs a socialist group would try to take over the world.

Look what happened.

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Thomas
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 -

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SNAKEBITE
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the dude does look like an agent...

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SNAKEBITE
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..I mean look at 'em, he aint foolin nobody...

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Greg B
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That cartoon above had me laughing so
hard it reminded me of another guy who
acted just like that. He got on tv and
made one of the most bizarre conspiracy
theories and predictions ever.

It's so funny I don't know how people
could have taken him seriously. I'll bet
his family is embarrassed to be related
to him after a boo boo like he made.

Reminds me of those tv psychics who in
1950 would predict we'd be on Mars in
1970.

I even found the vid. Prepare to be
rolling on the floor laughing.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY

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SNAKEBITE
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ow, ow, my side, stop, it hurts...that Eisenhower, what a silly guy...

good one, Greg.

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Greg B
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http://youtube.com/watch?v=cq0dBFqJZc0

This is the debunking of one of the
oldest and widespread conspiracy theories
ever.

I'm glad they straightened me out on
this one.

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Caracal
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Eisenhower talks about an alert and knowledgeable citizenry to combat the misuse of power in this clip.

Have we ever had that in America? Here's the king of conspiracies George W. who managed to dupe most of America that Saddam was connected to 911. Here he denies it. It's too funny and too horrible to watch at the same time.

http://nerdwithswag.com/2007/08/06/now-in-nws-news-george-bush-admits-that-iraq-has-nothin g-to-do-with-911/

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Greg B
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Caracal, how dare you say our President George W. Bush would ever espouse a conspiracy theory!

Why, that's just outlandish! I remember everything he said about Saddam and Iraq. He said explicitly that....

Um... that there were... uh, that we had to ...because Dick Cheney said... because Rumsfeld..

Oh fiddlesticks!

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eboles
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quote:

Daring to wonder if indeed 911 and other such incidents could possibly be the work of parties other than those to whom they were officially attributed, and attempting to investigate and verify the claims made by spokespersons of authority, provokes a surprising, almost fearful hostility. What harm can these questions pose?

It's too bad that rational suspicions are drowned out by the hysterical pandering of authors and attention-whores who build irrelevant, elaborate, easily-sold fantasies around what should be a simple presentation of sensible, direct questions. Any reasonable, substantial doubt is conveniently obscured by crazy talk.

Quoted for truth. Many of these 'theorists' in their approach are essentially in the entertainment business, and the more dramatic the conspiracy, the more likely they are to run with it. Nevertheless, enquiring minds want to know. Conspiracies do happen. There are numerous examples in history that should lead us to believe that there will always be people either willing or duped or brainwashed into doing the dirty work.

Even though many of the 'theories' may not be the most sober or rigorous, that doesn't mean that the official truth is the full story either.

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Greg B
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Well said Eboles.

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SNAKEBITE
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Caracal, that was painful to watch.

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Greg B
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Caracal, that clip shows that the Muppets are really getting better at it.

It would have worked better if the two grumpy heckler guys were in it.

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Chris Roman
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YOU'RE ALL IN ON IT!
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OFFBEAT
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Listen.. i'm not saying False Flag tactics are anything new.. or something only we would stoop too. It doesn't require secret societies to use.

False Flag Tactics have been around as long as our history has... been used by everyone. It's a military tactic.. just like terrorism is.

Roosevelt practically egged Japan on to attack us. And then acted surprised when they bombed pearl harbor.

It's just politics.. this is just how it's done.

The gulf of Tonkin which launched us into Vietnam was a false flag attack.. which never even happened. False reports was all it took to launch us into Vietnam.

NOW.. would I be mad if I found out that 9/11 (not saying it was/wasn't) was a false flag operation to launch us into a worth while and just war.. Like.. say the Russian nuclear superpower didn't disband.. and they teamed up with china.. but the rest of the world was on their side.. and somehow got the world to go against capitalism.. I would completely understand the use of 9/11 as a false flag operation and I would understand that is what it would take to get the support of the world behind us... if it was a just war.

Problem being.. this is not a worth while war. This is an invasion of a country for its natural resources. It's a bank robbery of military scale.
It's a bunch of lobbyists influencing a political party and using OUR resources to capitalize on a terrorist attack to do their will... or at least that is how it appears.

I know the philosophies behind the neo-cons. They think we need an enemy at all times to be as productive as we are. I disagree with this.. but i'm not a leader. Have we become so hungry that we have to war with someone every 10 years to maintain our comfortable lifestyles??

I know leaders have to do crappy things for the greater good.. but where is the greater good in Iraq? Where is the purpose? If we bring democracy to Iraq.. it won't be there long. They've tried it before!

The risk was not just enough IMO for us to do this. I'm sure they thought it woulda been a lot easier than it was.. they would have been in.. out.. easy surrender.. oil flowing to our interests.. in, out.. wham bam thank you m'aam. but it's not.

And I would have been ALL for a joined police action in Afghanistan.. where Al Qaeda was.. and if the government refused to co-operated.. I would have been ALL for nuclear strikes, or door to door skull smashing. At least get the general geographical location right!!

This is definitely an example of the school bully picking on the kid with asthma.

One thing this war is not.. is avenging the 9/11 tragedy or fighting terrorism.. that may be the sub-plot.. but they (by their own actions) have USED terrorism as a false reason and a license to wage and stay in war... they'll determine when terrorism is defeated as soon as they are finished taking what they want, setting up their management in Iraq. I bet they find Osama Bin Laden pretty damn fast when they do.

We've become a war-mongering nation. And what sucks is.. the more I think about it.. the more.. normal i'm starting to think that is. I don't think our race is ready on an evolutionary scale for peace. The longest period in our history that we've gone without war was 60 years.

I just think it's sh*tty. War is normal.. but I don't like it. I want it to change... but people keep churning out greedy loveless children.

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Jessie
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Offbeat, you also have the option to backup ALL of your claims anytime, as in hard evidence, solid facts and present them in the Supreme Court of the United States of America. Maybe, you have a better chances there than here.
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Caracal
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Jessie I notice you didn't refute a single thing Offbeat said. What did he say that was was incorrect?

Chhers

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OFFBEAT
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I figured it out.. and the best example of what I've found is HERE: http://youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww

The SAME reason people clap at the end of miss teen's answer.. is the SAME reason people support our president.
[funny] [funny] [funny]

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Greg B
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Very well said Offbeat. I'm surprised I'm agreeing with most of what you wrote.

This is a message board not a court of law or table of science however.

In regard to the post that originated this thread the bottom line is we have the choice, the freedom of choice not to believe the 'official' or 'conventional' explanation to things. That's the reason for the U.S. so that we can run our own lives not on the whims and whispers of tyrannical forces.

We don't have to believe that if a groundhog sees it's shadow the fate of winter will be determined. We don't have to believe in the 'Tooth Fairy' or the 'Grinch' for that matter.

We have the inalienable birthright to question and protest and write and print and speak about our beliefs whether excepted by the norm or not.

Far too many times we've seen science itself make a fool of itself in regard to what is a fact or not. This month of August alone saw a half dozen tenets of science overturned. Prior to that the theories these new discoveries have proven to be true would have been called 'Conspiracy Theories' or 'Tin Foil Hat' stuff.

Anyone who would be cowardly enough to not question a theory or statement or presented idea without a tad bit of skepticism is in danger of being hypnotized. That goes for the other side of the coin too. Every conspiracy theory out there has to be looked at with a healthy, I said a 'healthy' dose of skepticism or we'd all be watching where we toss the wash water or we'd hit one of the wee folk.

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Jessie
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Evidence - A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment: The broken window was evidence that a burglary had taken place. Scientists weigh the evidence for and against a hypothesis.
Something indicative; an outward sign: evidence of grief on a mourner's face.
Law. The documentary or oral statements and the material objects admissible as testimony in a court of law.

Something that provides substantiation of the existence or amount of an item. The third standard of field work for a certified audit requires the auditor to obtain sufficient competent evidential matter as a basis for formulating an opinion on the financial statements. Evidence is more reliable when obtained from an independent source. Further, the stronger the internal control system, the more reliable the evidence. Finally, evidence obtained directly by the auditor through physical examination, observation, computation, and inspection is more persuasive than information obtained indirectly. For example, the accountant needs "backup" to support an entry made in the Cash Disbursements Journal. The cancelled check would serve as that evidence.

Now, what part of that you don't understand, Caracal?


If Offbeat is claiming something as in the things he posted -- he'd better back it up with ________. Me, do I think they're incorrect? I don't know. Does God exist??

Again--- proof, even if it's just an opinion-- to be taken seriously, get it yet, Greg? or you need more explanation?

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Jessie
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...and yeah, show me the aliens!!
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OFFBEAT
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quote:
Offbeat, you also have the option to backup ALL of your claims anytime, as in hard evidence, solid facts and present them in the Supreme Court of the United States of America. Maybe, you have a better chances there than here.
I'm not sure what you want me to back-up.. i'm not saying 9/11 was an inside job. I will say there is enough evidence that makes it a possibility. And I wouldn't put it past our government to do such a thing.

The less we know about our government workings the happier we'll all be. I know I am. I've stopped reading the news daily. Ignorance is truly blissful.

I hate not being stupid.. I was a much happier person then! I hate that I can't listen to a white house spokesperson, and swallow everything they tell me. It sucks to be this way!!! It's not a party.

If I ran the government i'm sure our economy would collapse in no time. I couldn't order the necessary evils, that most of us don't want to know about, that make our country the superpower it is.

I notice no one on this board has questions why Al Qaeda attacked us in the first place.
Most americans are happy to swallow the tripe that they "hate our freedom" enough to attack us.

An answer worthy of coming from Miss Teen USA, IMO.

You can't dismiss all suspicion as 'conspiracy theory' hoping that by calling it that, it'll all go away. It's another argument conversation control tactic.. like changing the subject, when they have no ammo. or when they are deflecting the truth.

I call that "wrong headed thinking" (hopefully it'll go away by me calling it that [Wink] )

--------------------
"Get Rich, or Die Drawing!"

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OFFBEAT
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quote:
And I wouldn't put it past our government to do such a thing.
and I hope the american revolution is acceptable proof: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_tea_party

..it wasn't us.. it was the Indian terrorists!

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"Get Rich, or Die Drawing!"

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SNAKEBITE
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yes indeed. ignorance is bliss...unless you fill your head full of force fed social structure wave flaggin bla bla bla..thats total Elysium. try it, Offbeat...

we know you're human when you show emotion...

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www.artbysnakebite.com
www.myspace.com/mrbite
www.redskystudio.com
www.myspace.com/redskystudio

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akinney
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Jessie, why do you only come on the board throwing punches? Maybe I'm alone but you always just come out with 100% hostility - the only thing missing this time is your typical avalanche of !!!!!
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Caracal
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Ill say it again Jessie. Refute what you think is wrong. It is not your right to demand proof. This in't a court of law it's a forum.

You don't have that authority to demand proof about an opinion. If you have a point of view I haven't seen it. Do you have anything of any substance at all to say?

cheers

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Greg B
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<---sneaks up behind Jessie, reaches for his face, rips it off and reveals.....DICK CHENEY???

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http://www.boonestoons.com
http://www.spacefool.com

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Caracal
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Warning another Caracal "rant"

Jesse if someone like Offbeat has an opinion about events he has personally lived through and drawn conclusions from why should he be obligated to justify his first hand experience to you or anyone else on this board? All he has to answer to is his own conscious (which seems to be in pretty good order in my opinion. )

And yet he does. He gives you line after line of explanation. And in dong so he is far more courteous than I would be. What does he get from you?

Nothing. You don't ADD any information to the discussion. You don't express a point of view that is contrary to his about anything. I haven't heard you "say" anything that nullifies Offbeats opinion .Your not shedding any light on the issue.

You can't be a bastion of the conservative voice in a sea of liberals unless you actually have something to say.

Cheers

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