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Author Topic: China Makes Economics Threat To U.S.
Greg B
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2007/08/07/bcnchina107a.xml

I knew this was coming. This is gonna be fun to watch.

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Jasen
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Let's see how Bill Clinton spins this.

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Mel Allen Sink
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How about the *other* guy who has only been President over the last six and a half years of this?

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Greg B
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ROFL! Back home the homies on the Republican Committee make a joke that Bill Clinton was the best Republican President we've had since Lyndon Johnson!

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Mel Allen Sink
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As in alienating or scaring a lot of people over to the GOP?

Clinton did do something as unDemocratic as balance the budget, although I don't think that he would have done it without a lot of Republican arm twisting.

My big beef with Clinton is that the era wasn't a clean enough break or reform from the Reagan-Bush era. What was whole Yuppie Boomer self-servingness and management greed thing being okay if you did your repentance by being all Fundie and having your feigned morality coming out of somebody else's hide, got exchanged for repenting by being all Politically Correct with some token regulation coming out of somebody else's hide.

Then there's Iowa where Reagan alienated a whole lot of people over being blase and callous over the farm crisis and hurting rural economy, and a lot of coastal pundents can't figure out why a Red State votes for a whole lot of Democrats.

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Jasen
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Taxes are used for paying off the 5,338,772,334,880 dollar debt.
The estimated population of the United States is
302,647,214
so each citizen's share of this debt is
$29,553.38.
The National Debt has continued to increase an
average of
$1.40 billion per day since September 29, 2006!

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Thomas
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quote:
Then there's Iowa where Reagan alienated a whole lot of people over being blase and callous over the farm crisis and hurting rural economy, and a lot of coastal pundents can't figure out why a Red State votes for a whole lot of Democrats.
Please explain.

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Thomas
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quote:
I knew this was coming.
Really? Why didn't you tell us last week, month, or even year ago?

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monkeydad
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Oh please - anyone who was even remotely paying attention could have seen something like this coming.

When you put your financial b@lls in someone else's vice, you shouldn't be surprised if they decide to start turning the handle.

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Thomas
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True, but I didn't ask you now, did I.

I'm also kinda curious as to why he's so gleeful about it and most any other bad news that usually flies by his face.

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monkeydad
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If you wanted to have a one-on-one conversation, why did you post here instead of sending a private message?

I'm pretty sure Greg's initial comment wasn't directed specifically at you either.

Sheesh... [Roll Eyes]

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JDC
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What do Clinton, the Bush's, and Reagan have to deal with China? I thought Nixon opened that pandora's box?

[Confused]

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Greg B
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JDC, Clinton opened weapons trades and high end technology with China. Even missile technology. Made no sense to us for that.

Bush Sr. was ambassador to China. Still has major business associations there too.

Nixon opened the door. Nixon was a genius in foreign policy in some regards. He just didn't know how to pick competent henchmen.

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Tobias A. Wolf
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Isn't kind of funny that a party that prides itself on security and it's anti-communist record has almost single handedly sold out the future of this country to a red nation via this administration and it's policies that have lead to our ever increasing indebtedness? For as much as we spend on defense, I think to take over a country these days all you have to do is pay the right people.

It's what this Country did in Iran and Peru via the CIA in the past, who's to say this isn't what is happening here and now? If an administration can be sold out to corporate bidding, who's to say it's influence can't be sold out to the will of a foreign government as well that we are now a slave to through debt. Party of security?

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Charles
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You guys are making a mistake in thinking this is about political parties. It's way beyond that. Neither party has what it takes to make things right.

I think we should call China's bluff. Dare them to follow through on their threat. Go ahead China and see where this will get you. You need us a lot more than we need you. Without the American economy where do you think your economy will be. Try and bust the US economy. But before you do, think of what your move will do for your great leap forward.

Our trade deficit with China is around $27 billion a month. That's more than a third of a trillion dollars a year and growing. They're making a lot of money off of us. If we go down then China goes down too.

I think China should do it now. Let's get it out of the way before it gets worse. We've weathered a lot of challenges in our history and we can survive this.

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eboles
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quote:
I think we should call China's bluff. Dare them to follow through on their threat.
Don't forget that it's not China making the threats here. They don't want trade sanctions and outside interference imposed on them anymore than any other country does. This is their way of saying 'don't push us around'.

The way I see it, such economic manoeuvring is preferable to solving disputes the other way. Even with the biggest and best military in the world, you can't just swagger around and do as you please. All of that can ultimately be bought out from under.

On the other hand, China may need to be held to account for a lot of stuff. That's a delicate balance. They're still a long way behind the U.S. and the E.U., but it won't be that way forever. The global balance of power is shifting and it's in everyone's best interests to strengthen these economic ties and to foster better international relations.

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Charles
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When it comes to China US trade relations China is certainly getting the better end of the deal. With a massive trade surplus, why would they threaten to collapse the dollar when the US has been asking them, not demanding, but asking them to let their currency float so it can reflect more accurately against world markets.

The US can take any economic retribution that China thinks it can dish out. It'll hurt them much more than it'll hurt us. The US is a strong country and we can weather the storm if it comes which it won't because there's too much money to be made the way things are and China won't do it. At least not until after the Olympics.

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Greg B
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Tobias is wise.

Charles, good points!

I've been a study of China for all my life. Family and friends ties go very deep. Many Americans underestimate the contributions of Chinese Americans but they've been here since who knows when! There are Chinese American families that have been here since way before the American Revolution and then some.

Their ties to the mainland China vary. China's history is one of being constantly attacked by outsiders. The Chinese are generally peaceful folks who thrive and that prosperity brings in outside intervention. No matter what you throw at the Chinese they still keep going. However, the Communists are fiendish. They had their high end so called morals because of the devestation of British attempts at conquest. Remember, it was Britain that forced on that opium epidemic of the 1800s that was horrid to the Chinese culture. They don't trust the West and there's no reason they should.

Actually, if the Chinese were left alone to recover their culture they'd make the rest of us look like saps.

Problem nowadays are two-fold. The growing criminal element that the Communists at one time had beaten, and that criminal element's ties to the west now corrupting government even more.

Charles is right in that it's got nothing to do with political parties, it's about GREED. The Asian people again being played and exploited by both western whoremongers and Asia's own evil crime lords.

Now China is back in the economics game and they know they are as strong as they're able to control themselves. They'd like to modernize but have to depend on the west to do so, for now. China's uncooperative stance will never bankrupt the U.S.. We have more money stashed away than the leprechauns. China would collapse if it went econowar on us. They wouldn't be gone, but they would have hardships like never before. Bottom line is the one thing China found out that we're just now finding out is that you can have all the laws and regulations in the world, bottom line is when you have too many people, you can't police and enforce those laws.

The world is finding out we don't have enough cops and it's up to us to police ourselves. I think we'll do a good job like the communities of old but without the torches and lynchings.

Communism doesn't work because it thrives from oppression. Capitalism works better when freedoms are preserved. We're seeing freedoms being compromised by the totalitarian nonsense of the present administration and we're seeing the effects in areas of our own economy.

Summarily, China can make all the threats in the world but the worst they can do is stop their manufacturing of goods and we'd be screwed from no Christmas toys and such til we built new factories in the U.S. or S. America.

Actually, if the U.S. wanted to make a fortune of untold measure they'd be relocating their factories to the African nations. Lotsa folks there that would appreciate the work and income and they'd be easier to police. No one's been beat down harder than the Africans but like the Chinese no matter what disaster befalls them they still keep on keeping on. Africa is closer, more natural resources and the U.S. has about 100 million people of African descent in three or four different cultures from English, Spanish, French, Irish.

So let China sabre rattle, the solution is just 1600 miles away from S. America's coast.

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eboles
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quote:
With a massive trade surplus, why would they threaten to collapse the dollar when the US has been asking them, not demanding, but asking them to let their currency float so it can reflect more accurately against world markets.
Asking or demanding? The way I've read it in this article and other sources, they use words like 'impose','force' and 'pressure'.

A less provocative solution to this situation might be to buy back control over U.S. debt. The irony is that this would be easier to do if China does liquidate their stake in it. But with the dollar being used as a reserve currency, the whole house of cards could come tumbling down.

The way I understand it, the Yuan is artificially low. China is going to have to loosen control sooner or later, but if you force China to lay off and let it's currency increase at the natural rate, it's going to increase, and rapidly to make up for lost time. In that scenario, holding on to dollars is a sure way to lose a lot of money fast, so of course they'd be forced to liquidate their dollars.

from the article:
quote:
Henry Paulson, the US Tresury Secretary, said any such sanctions would undermine American authority and "could trigger a global cycle of protectionist legislation".
I think he has it about right. That would be bad for everyone. A major setback. It would be a return to the dark ages.
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ColorInAble
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Q: If our economy crashes because of this, who do you think is going to cut back spending first?

A: The Wal-Mart crowd of shoppers

And then who will buy all the lead painted toys, poison Toothpaste and Pet Food, and the tires that blow out like every car was a Ford Exploder (Explorer)???

No One...

And China will tank...

If they kill our economy, they will kill there own, this being in financial bed is a 2 way street...

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Charles
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China might pirate even more intellectual properties than they already do and may not ever leave Tibet if we pressure them too much so we have to be careful.

Mattel learned a big lesson about manufacturing in China. From today's news:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20200025/

In the article concerning a gigantic recall of Fisher Price toys that have lead paint in them, China says "until they rectify problems... suggested that foreign companies who contract Chinese factories should take more responsibility.

'To prevent loopholes in quality control, overseas brand owners should improve their product design and supervision over product quality,' the administration said."

In other words, its the fault of their US clients for not paying more attention to what's going on during the manufacturing process in Chinese factories.

Confucius would be confused by this logic.

The petition to have China accurately value its currency has been going on for years. This isn't something new by any means and in the use of modern Chinese administrative logic, they'd rather hurl the US into a recession than play fair.

They can threaten all they want but they won't do a thing until after the Olympics. When that time comes, perhaps they'll stop behaving like communists and be more willing to function within the world community on a level playing field.

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Greg B
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China's got human rights problems for sure. Yet the U.S. can't complain about it because our human rights violations are second to none except the Nazis. We've wiped out entire cultures and were sanctioned by the government to do so. So when it comes to beefing about China's human right's policies we have to sit down and shut up.

However, that doesn't justify what China is doing. It's simple math. There are too many people to police in China. China has a huge manned army but we all know that they couldn't last a month on the run because of logistics of feeding them. An army can be so big it can't survive.

You guys have to understand something. Something that isn't pleasant but true. A good chunk of Chinese companies doing manufacturing are actually owned by foreigners for tax and labor purposes. Yes, I've spilled the beans but I've been fighting against slave labor since I was a teenager. Seen it first hand and get reports fresh from the field.

China is not a competitive country. It's being used as a front company by our own neighbors. There ain't a major corporation in the U.S. that doesn't have money down on China.

Friggin' shame it is. Especially the debt market. It's so obvious people in debt here own Chinese companies that buy their own debt! It's a scam as old as the hills. I'll detail later. Bottom line is the crap going on in China is nothing more than the west getting a good look at itself.

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Jasen
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China’s "nuclear option" to Dump the Dollar is Real - Post Media Reply
Aug 13, 2007, 00:24


Twenty-four hours after reported China’s announcement that China, not the Federal Reserve, controls US interest rates by its decision to purchase, hold, or dump US Treasury bonds, the news of the announcement appeared in sanitized and unthreatening form in a few US news sources.

The Washington Post found an economics professor at the University of Wisconsin to provide reassurances that it was "not really a credible threat" that China would intervene in currency or bond markets in any way that could hurt the dollar’s value or raise US interest rates, because China would hurt its own pocketbook by such actions.

US Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson, just back from Beijing, where he gave China orders to raise the value of the Chinese yuan "without delay," dismissed the Chinese announcement as "frankly absurd." [Another Shot in Currency Fight Chinese Threaten Divestment, by Krissah Williams, August 9, 2007]

Both the professor and the treasury secretary are greatly mistaken.

First, understand that the announcement was not made by a minister or vice minister of the government. The Chinese government is inclined to have important announcements come from research organizations that work closely with the government. This announcement came from two such organizations. A high official of the Development Research Center, an organization with cabinet rank, let it be known that US financial stability was too dependent on China’s financing of US red ink for the US to be giving China orders. An official at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences pointed out that the reserve currency status of the US dollar was dependent on China’s good will as America’s lender.

What the two officials said is completely true. It is something that some of us have known for a long time. What is different is that China publicly called attention to Washington’s dependence on China’s good will. By doing so, China signaled that it was not going to be bullied or pushed around.

The Chinese made no threats. To the contrary, one of the officials said, "China doesn’t want any undesirable phenomenon in the global financial order." The Chinese message is different. The message is that Washington does not have hegemony over Chinese policy, and if matters go from push to shove, Washington can expect financial turmoil.

Paulson can talk tough, but the Treasury has no foreign currencies with which to redeem its debt. The way the Treasury pays off the bonds that come due is by selling new bonds, a hard sell in a falling market deserted by the largest buyer.

Paulson found solace in his observation that the large Chinese holdings of US Treasuries comprise only "one day’s trading volume in Treasuries." This is a meaningless comparison. If the supply suddenly doubled, does Paulson think the price of Treasuries would not fall and the interest rate not rise? If Paulson believes that US interest rates are independent of China’s purchases and holdings of Treasuries, Bush had better quickly find himself a new Treasury Secretary.

Now let’s examine the University of Wisconsin economist’s opinion that China cannot exercise its power because it would result in losses on its dollar holdings. It is true that if China were to bring any significant percentage of its holdings to market, or even cease to purchase new Treasury issues, the prices of bonds would decline, and China’s remaining holdings would be worth less. The question, however, is whether this is of any consequence to China, and, if it is, whether this cost is greater or lesser than avoiding the cost that Washington is seeking to impose on China.

American economists make a mistake in their reasoning when they assume that China needs large reserves of foreign exchange. China does not need foreign exchange reserves for the usual reasons of supporting its currency’s value and paying its trade bills. China does not allow its currency to be traded in currency markets. Indeed, there is not enough yuan available to trade. Speculators, betting on the eventual rise of the yuan’s value, are trying to capture future gains by trading "virtual yuan." The other reason is that China does not have foreign trade deficits, and does not need reserves in other currencies with which to pay its bills. Indeed, if China had creditors, the creditors would be pleased to be paid in yuan as the currency is thought to be undervalued.

Despite China’s support of the Treasury bond market, China’s large holdings of dollar-denominated financial instruments have been depreciating for some time as the dollar declines against other traded currencies, because people and central banks in other countries are either reducing their dollar holdings or ceasing to add to them. China’s dollar holdings reflect the creditor status China acquired when US corporations offshored their production to China. Reportedly, 70% of the goods on Wal-Mart’s shelves are made in China. China has gained technology and business knowhow from the US firms that have moved their plants to China. China has large coastal cities, choked with economic activity and traffic, that make America’s large cities look like country towns. China has raised about 300 million of its population into higher living standards, and is now focusing on developing a massive internal market some 4 to 5 times more populous than America’s.

The notion that China cannot exercise its power without losing its US markets is wrong. American consumers are as dependent on imports of manufactured goods from China as they are on imported oil. In addition, the profits of US brand name companies are dependent on the sale to Americans of the products that they make in China. The US cannot, in retaliation, block the import of goods and services from China without delivering a knock-out punch to US companies and US consumers. China has many markets and can afford to lose the US market easier than the US can afford to lose the American brand names on Wal-Mart’s shelves that are made in China. Indeed, the US is even dependent on China for advanced technology products. If truth be known, so much US production has been moved to China that many items on which consumers depend are no longer produced in America.

Now let’s consider the cost to China of dumping dollars or Treasuries compared to the cost that the US is trying to impose on China. If the latter is higher than the former, it pays China to exercise the "nuclear option" and dump the dollar.

The US wants China to revalue the yuan, that is, to make the dollar value of the yuan higher. Instead of a dollar being worth 8 yuan, for example, Washington wants the dollar to be worth only 5.5 yuan. Washington thinks that this would cause US exports to China to increase, as they would be cheaper for the Chinese, and for Chinese exports to the US to decline, as they would be more expensive. This would end, Washington thinks, the large trade deficit that the US has with China.

This way of thinking dates from pre-offshoring days. In former times, domestic and foreign-owned companies would compete for one another’s markets, and a country with a lower valued currency might gain an advantage. Today, however, about half of the so-called US imports from China are the offshored production of US companies for their American markets. The US companies produce in China, not because of the exchange rate, but because labor, regulatory, and harassment costs are so much lower in China. Moreover, many US firms have simply moved to China, and the cost of abandoning their new Chinese facilities and moving production back to the US would be very high.

When all these costs are considered, it is unclear how much China would have to revalue its currency in order to cancel its cost advantages and cause US firms to move enough of their production back to America to close the trade gap.

To understand the shortcomings of the statements by the Wisconsin professor and Treasury Secretary Paulson, consider that if China were to increase the value of the yuan by 30 percent, the value of China’s dollar holdings would decline by 30 percent. It would have the same effect on China’s pocketbook as dumping dollars and Treasuries in the markets.

Consider also, that as revaluation causes the yuan to move up in relation to the dollar (the reserve currency), it also causes the yuan to move up against every other traded currency. Thus, the Chinese cannot revalue as Paulson has ordered without making Chinese goods more expensive not merely to Americans but everywhere.

Compare this result with China dumping dollars. With the yuan pegged to the dollar, China can dump dollars without altering the exchange rate between the yuan and the dollar. As the dollar falls, the yuan falls with it. Goods and services produced in China do not become more expensive to Americans, and they become cheaper elsewhere. By dumping dollars, China expands its entry into other markets and accumulates more foreign currencies from trade surpluses.

Now consider the non-financial costs to China’s self-image and rising prestige of permitting the US government to set the value of its currency. America’s problems are of its own making, not China’s. A rising power such as China is likely to prove a reluctant scapegoat for America’s decades of abuse of its reserve currency status.

Economists and government officials believe that a rise in consumer prices by 30 percent is good if it results from yuan revaluation, but that it would be terrible, even beyond the pale, if the same 30 percent rise in consumer prices resulted from a tariff put on goods made in China. The hard-pressed American consumer would be hit equally hard either way. It is paradoxical that Washington is putting pressure on China to raise US consumer prices, while blaming China for harming Americans. As is usually the case, the harm we suffer is inflicted by Washington.

http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_2293.shtml

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Caracal
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Thanks for a very informative thread.

I recently watched Hillary Clinton on FORA TV giving a talk that covered globalization in part . She made the point that a lot of what the next
presidency is going to be about would be either revitalizing the UN or creating new institutions to get China, Europe, Japan, Russia etc to sit down and hammer out where we're all going in the age of globalization.

To paraphrase some of the senators other points:

China is the second largest buyer of treasury bonds (buying our debt) and if they decide to stop buying our debt our economy is going to be in very serious trouble. We haven't been a net exporter since 1980. On top of the trade imbalance China wants more of our share of the 25 percent of worldwide oil shares we currently consume. So do Japan and the other southeastern countries that own our debt.

We are particularly weak in international support due to the last six years of unilateralism under the Bush administration and in a very weak position to be making threats or demands on China.

I've heard the analogy it's like threatening the banker who holds the mortgage on your house.

As far as other issues raised here like human rights, economic rights we're going to need a lot smarter diplomacy and international support. And unless we find some way of convincing the private corporations to change their strategies and practices I don't see how things will improve.

Cheers

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Greg B
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Jasen that story just bolsters the point. Thanks.

Notice how the U.S. makes the sabre rattle about China upping the Yuan?

Not, "Hey, stop murdering people who want to practice their religion" or "Hey, stop forcing children into slave labor" or "Hey, how about air conditioning in these hot sweat shops where you make our children's toys!"... no none of that, but "You better raise the value of the yuan so we can get a better ROI!" is the U.S. rallying cry.

You guys get the picture now?

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Jasen
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someone a bit off the subject but still something worth seeing from China...
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8ff_1187101308

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Jasen
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I was talking on the phone when I type that [blush]

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Jasen
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More poop...
China and Russia Begin Teasing Washington - Post Media Reply Marked as: Mature
Moscow and Beijing have teamed up and appear determined to send a message to the White House, singly and together, which translated could mean, “Don’t mess with us” and “Stay clear of our allies.”

The two countries are currently playing war games together with Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan, all members of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO), considered a buffer to US oil and gas ambitions in the Caspian.

The SCO claims its mission is counterterrorist but while Iran, India, Pakistan and Mongolia have been invited to attend an associated Aug. 16 summit, the US has been rebuffed.

This comes hard on the heels of a not subtle Chinese threat to the American economy. Last week, two Chinese officials made statements, which did nothing to settle market jitters.

In essence, they warned the US to quit pressuring China to revalue its yuan or else it could decide to dump its dollar reserves, worth $1,330 billion and cash in its US Treasury bonds, roughly valued at $900 billion.

In the unlikely event of China following through on the implied threat, the ensuing economic carnage could make the 1929 Wall Street Crash look like a picnic because other countries would be panicked into following suit. Incredibly, some 45 percent of America’s foreign debt is held by foreigners, which leaves the US in an extremely vulnerable position.

Not to be outdone in the audacity-stakes, Russia claims to have buzzed a US airbase on the Pacific island of Guam in a show of its military resurgence.

According to the Russian military, two of its bombers were intercepted by US jets.

The pilots smiled at one another, says Russia, before going their separate ways. The Pentagon denies any such interception ever took place.

Russia’s new confidence derives from its friends in powerful places plus the fact it is swimming in oil and gas wealth, partly because Bush’s wars and aggressive Middle East foreign policy has driven up prices.

Its recent foray into the Arctic where divers erected rustproof titanium Russian flag on the seabed of the North Pole was interpreted by some as Russia having laid claim to some of the world’s largest untapped petrochemical reserves.

In the past, the logistics of tapping into those reserves were daunting, not to mention uneconomical, but now that ice caps are melting and prices are rising, Russia sees an opportunity.

It seems so does Canada and Denmark. Last week Canada announced the opening of two military bases in the region, while a group of 40 Danish scientists are traveling to the Arctic on an icebreaker to stake Denmark’s claim.

Now Georgia has stepped into the fray by asserting a Russian military aircraft has violated its airspace, leaving behind a missile that failed to explode in a farmer’s field, near the disputed region of Ossetia.

Russia has denied the incident and accused Georgia of putting on a “theatrical presentation” aimed at canceling scheduled talks over the breakaway area’s future status.

Russia has further made it crystal clear that it does not approve of George Bush’s anti-missile defense shield being erected in Poland and the Czech Republic out of concern it could be directed at it rather than Iran and North Korea, as claimed. President Vladimir Putin initially proposed a joint missile defense venture with the US — an idea that was not well received.

And so he has decided to beef up his own defense system, modernize his army and navy and, in the event Bush’s star wars plan proceeds on his doorstep, he has threatened to direct his missiles toward Europe.

Russia’s relations with Britain have also gone south. Their erosion began when people Russia termed as British spies working under cover of the British Embassy in Moscow were filmed concealing a telecommunications device inside a dummy rock, through which secret messages could be transmitted via a palm-sized computer.

Diplomacy succeeded in papering over that embarrassing incident that was shown to viewers around the world on Russian TV. But nothing could put a lid on the mysterious death of Alexander Litvinenko who was poisoned by Polonium-210 after meeting with two former KGB agents and an Italian friend in London.

Following investigation, Britain’s director of public prosecutions requested the extradition of Andrei Lugovoi, a Russian citizen and was told in no uncertain terms that Article 61 of Russian Constitution forbids the extradition of Russian citizens to foreign countries and any such trial must take place within Russia. Russia also accuses Britain of refusing to extradite Russian citizens wanted by Moscow.

The contretemps is still ongoing and has thus far resulted in the tit-for-tat expulsions of both Russian and British diplomats. This is all a far cry from those cozy post-Cold War years when President Bush said he looked his Russian counterpart in the eye and sensed his soul. The only looks they’ll be giving one another nowadays would be decidedly shifty.

It seems to be a terrible shame that such a wealth of goodwill has been so cavalierly wasted. If the Bush administration hadn’t been so intent on pushing its global weight around to fulfill a neocon agenda of full spectrum dominance we might have enjoyed a world where major powers worked together for the good of all.

Together they could have striven toward alleviating poverty and disease, reducing conflict and tackling climate change. Instead, untold billions will go toward weapons of death and destruction. This is Cold War Mark II folks — a deadlier sequel to Mark I now that China is on board. Fasten your seatbelts for an uncomfortable ride ahead!

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eboles
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Oh terrific, as if we don't have enough problems on our plate to worry about down the line.

The U.S., China, Russia, there's a lot of old grudges and conflicting interests there, but there's no reason compromises can't be reached, and there's no reason everyone can't continue to work together to mutual benefit. The more everyone listens to their paranoid warhawks, the worse it gets.

BBC radio had an informative program today on the current Pacific arms race.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6937293.stm

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Caracal
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That's a rather unsettling article Eboles

There is one bright spot in the future. No matter who ends up in the White House next election George Bush's doctrine of unilateralism is dead. At least we have some hope for diplomacy and better international consensus to prevail over armed conflicts. If only to reorganize our military assets to cope better with future conflicts we need to push for diplomatic solutions.

Cheers

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eboles
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Though Bush will be gone, the damage has been done. Witness the atmosphere of distrust that has developed. The U.S. will have it's motives called into question more so than ever before. On top of that, it's become increasingly evident that even America's immense military supremacy is not without its limitations.

It's important that the next U.S. president be a shrewd diplomatic operator. Looks like it's about to get complicated.

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Greg B
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Russia and China are fartin' in the wind.

Both know economically they'll dry up if they compromise global economy.

It's about 'freedom' and we have it more than any other country that's why we excel no matter what gets thrown at us.

Russia and China just don't get that. They cannot run their countries democratically so their advances are limited even though Russia has immense resources their mindset and cultural taboos just hold them back. Same and worse with China.

Let em' beef all they want. We have the workers and resources. We also have the greediest people in human history who will cry and wail if we step off from Russia and China but you can't make omlettes without breakin' eggs.

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Charles
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On the contrary. Americans are the most generous people in the world. We've proven that time after time after time.

The biggest mistake the international community makes in regards to our country is in underestimating us. The historical pattern for this goes all the way back to 1776. The USA is very resilient. We may be a little screwed up here and there, a little more than usual at different times, but we never fail to rise to a challenge.

I've been doing some research into the subject of China's control over certain aspects of America's economic equity. Dumping US dollars doesn't make sense. It'll send a panic through international monetary funds. So to divest their holdings in US dollars China and other countries, most especially Saudi Arabia, have created what are called sovereign wealth funds, or SWFs for short.

These are funds owned by their respective government and as such, there's no need to make public disclosure about what's in those funds. What they've been doing is dumping dollars into these funds and then dumping them again into the US to buy up as much stuff in our country as they can. That way they're getting something in return for the dollars they've accumulated.

This might sound upsetting up for Americans, and it is, the thought of factories and highways and ports and national forest being bought up by China and others, especially since many of these resources were paid for and owned by the American taxpayer, but we can always nationalize these resources if China feels like they want to take us on by starting a war. Then we can resell them to the highest bidder.

It's in the best interests of the global community to work with America. There's no need for military confrontation but if it comes down to it our enemies know what they'll be dealing with regardless of who's president.

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eboles
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When you compare the GDPs of the U.S., China, Russia, it's quite clear who has the power. There's really no reason the U.S. has to carry so much debt or start selling off public resources.
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Greg B
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Charles, that ain't a contrary, I admit we're the most generous because we have the MOST.

What China is going through is what Japan tried to do when they were top dog. Buy up all sorts of American real estate and business holdings and then corruption and greed undermined them.

Asia's being played for suckers and China is the second kid on the block. When China falls, India will be next etc..

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Greg B
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btw considering all the poisonings from Chinese made goods they may have announced their death knell already.

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Thomas
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Greg, you really don't understand much in the way things work do you. It doesn't matter if the Japanese, Chinese, or any other 'ese buys American land. More power to them. It stimulates our economy, suggests that this is a good place to be, and more importantly they can't take it with them.

I've no understanding the way you think, as it seems you have absolutely no core beliefs.

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SNAKEBITE
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We rent our freedom. make no mistake. America is not as wonderful as we might think. We're selling our young for economic leverage.

With more privatized military like Black Water we're gonna see in the not to far off future how free and powerful we are.

We having another cold war, except it should be called the ColdHardCash War. We keep building monsters we have to destroy and that destroys us.

America, the Dr Frankenstein of the world.

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Charles
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Tobias Wolf posted on another thread but intended for this topic.

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I've heard and read about the reasons for China not exercising their economic nuclear option. They are all rational, but what none of them take into account is that Governments can behave in extraordinarily irrational ways historically. That is the fundamental problem with this issue for me.

Our core economic stability has now been made vulnerable to the political turmoil of a deeply undemocratic nation which has serious revolutionary sentiments within it. If China can't manage it's growth, we are in deep trouble.

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Caracal
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That is at once about the shortest and most insightful post in this thread. Thanks for the redirecton.
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