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Author Topic: No End In Sight
SNAKEBITE
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http://www.noendinsightmovie.com/index.html?skipIntro

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OFFBEAT
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You mean when a President and vice President who are oil tycoons steal an election, and take advantage of a tragedy to send our troops to INVADE a oil rich country, things don't go as planned?

...who'da thunk? ..besides me, and a majority of people on this board?

They just came out with a report that Al Queda is stronger than it's been even before 9/11. I guess I was right about Iraqis aren't too happy that we invaded and bombed innocent men women and children.

These people can't forgive stuff that happened thousands of years ago. Can't imagine what the blow back from this will be.

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Greg B
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Hey Offbeat, let's be fair now.

Nobody stole any elections. That's hearsay and conspiracy theory 'tinfoil hat' talk.

Bush and Cheney are insuring our future by going after the insurgents in Iraq to better secure our social infrastructure.

It's just a bunch of sore losers who keep accusing and blaming the Bush Administration for their own irresponsibility.

Bush and Cheney were elected twice by the people and electorate.

Basically, we got what we deserved.

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Charles
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History will not be kind to this administration.

Following Offbeat's post here's a link to an article about the recent strengthening of Al Qaeda.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19717961/site/newsweek/

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Tobias A. Wolf
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Impeachment is on the table more so than ever after what I've witnessed this week.

If this administration stands in the extraordinary rights it's been asserting, we have a lot to worry about in the future. And I don't think many Republican die-hards understand that what has been good for the goose will stand to be good for the gander when their party is on the other side of power. If all the abuses of the Constitution that have been allowed without repercussions stand...

...some people are going to learn right quick that the world is indeed a round place.

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Thomas
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An Impeachment based on what? This is the first I've heard of it. I know that, "only those who have allegedly committed "treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors" may be impeached."

I haven't seen anything in the news to suggest that the President was under indictment.

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Paburrows
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actually the wording is since 9/11 which means up to but not before 9/11. The media needs to go back to the 3rd grade.

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Jennifer Hachigian Jerrard
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quote:
An Impeachment based on what? This is the first I've heard of it. I know that, "only those who have allegedly committed "treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors" may be impeached."
Last night, on PBS' Bill Moyers Journal, Bill Moyers had Bruce Fein and John Nichols as guests. They discussed the need for impeachment against the president and vice-president to protect our Constitution, our freedoms and our national security.

If you don't have time to read the whole transcript, here's parts of it:

quote:
From http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07132007/transcript4.html

...

BILL MOYERS: One of the fellows you're about to meet wrote the first article of impeachment against President Clinton. Bruce Fein did so because perjury is a legal crime. And Fein believed no one is above the law. A constitutional scholar, Bruce Fein served in the Justice Department during the Reagan administration and as general counsel of the Federal Communications Commission. Bruce Fein has been affiliated with conservative think tanks such as the American Enterprise Institute and the Heritage Foundation and now writes a weekly column for THE WASHINGTON TIMES and Politico.com.

He's joined by John Nichols, the Washington correspondent for THE NATION and an associate editor of the CAPITOL TIMES. Among his many books is this most recent one, THE GENIUS OF IMPEACHMENT: THE FOUNDERS' CURE FOR ROYALISM. Good to see you both. ...

...

BRUCE FEIN: ... we're talking about assertions of power that affect the individual liberties of every American citizen. Opening your mail, your e-mails, your phone calls. Breaking and entering your homes. Creating a pall of fear and intimidation if you say anything against the president you may find retaliation very quickly. We're claiming he's setting precedents that will lie around like loaded weapons anytime there's another 9/11.

Right now the victims are people whose names most Americans can't pronounce. And that's why they're not so concerned. They will start being Browns and Jones and Smiths. And that precedent is being set right now. And one of the dangers that I see is it's not just President Bush but the presidential candidates for 2008 aren't standing up and saying--

BRUCE FEIN: --"If I'm president, I won't imitate George Bush." That shows me that this is a far deeper problem than Mr. Bush and Cheney.

BILL MOYERS: That struck me about your writings and your book. You say your great-- your great fear is that Bush and Cheney will hand off to their successors a toolbox that they will not avoid using.

JOHN NICHOLS: Well, let's try a metaphor. Let's say that-- when George Washington chopped down the cherry tree, he used the wood to make a little box. And in that box the president puts his powers. We've taken things out. We've put things in over the years.

On January 20th, 2009, if George Bush and Dick Cheney are not appropriately held to account this administration will hand off a toolbox with more powers than any president has ever had, more powers than the founders could have imagined. And that box may be handed to Hillary Clinton or it may be handed to Mitt Romney or Barack Obama or someone else. But whoever gets it, one of the things we know about power is that people don't give away the tools. They don't give them up. The only way we take tools out of that box is if we sanction George Bush and Dick Cheney now and say the next president cannot govern as these men have.

...



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Thomas
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I know we've discussed this before, regarding what the transcript talks about, but the powers that this president has used or has been given have been enacted as such for purposes during a time of war.

Shall I or someone else bring up what other presidents have done during similar periods in this country's history?

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Jennifer Hachigian Jerrard
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quote:
I know we've discussed this before, regarding what the transcript talks about, but the powers that this president has used or has been given have been enacted as such for purposes during a time of war.

Shall I or someone else bring up what other presidents have done during similar periods in this country's history?

Go for it if you want, but I think the full transcript covers that. For example:

quote:
From http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07132007/transcript4.html

...

BRUCE FEIN: In the past, presidents like Abe Lincoln, who confronted a far dire emergency in the Civil War than today, sought congressional ratification approval of his emergency measures. He didn't seek to hide them from the people and from Congress and to prevent there to be accountability. And, of course, Congress did ratify what he had done. Secondly, sure, times can be terrifying. But that also should alert us to the fact that we can make mistakes. The executive can make mistakes.

Take World War II. We locked up 120,000 Japanese Americans, said they were all disloyal. Well, we got 120,000 mistakes. They lost their property. They lost their liberty for years and years because we made a huge mistake. And that can be true after 9/11 as well. No one wants other downgrade the fact that we have abominations out there and people want to kill us. But we should not inflate the danger and we should not cast aside what we are as a people. We can fight and defeat these individuals, these criminals, based upon our system of law and justice. It's not a-- we have a fighting constitution. It's always worked in the past. But it still remains the constitution of checks of balances.

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eboles
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quote:
the powers that this president has used or has been given have been enacted as such for purposes during a time of war.
That's the whole point of this thread: when does it end? And not just Iraq. At what point will we be able to say "the war on international terrorism is over"?

Welcome to the new american century.

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Greg B
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Believe it or not, Bush hasn't broken the law. Some of his cronies have and are no longer in power.

The only thing that rubs me wrong is the War in Iraq. Iraq didn't attack us so why a war? On hearsay? We murder hundreds of thousands of people on hearsay?

On that measure alone Bush shouldn't be impeached but he should resign like Nixon did to save the country from disgrace. If we took all our materiel out of Iraq it would take years. That's how much stuff we've moved into their country.

The Iraq War was an excuse to grant those executive powers. Bush didn't start it, he's inherited it and should have been smart enough to know he'd been bullsh1tted by his own crews. Or maybe he realizes he's surrounded himself with psychotic murderers and there's no way out but to lay down and take wrongways.

Some say you lay down with dogs and you'll get fleas.

Bottom line is he hasn't broken the law. Those impeachment specialists are really stretching it.

Far as I'm concerned, the American People brought it on themselves because of their own greed and racist hatreds.

At least we have a very strong global economy. Any of you own interests globally? You must be making good loot!

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Greg B
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Oh, the only valid point Offbeat's sources make is the violation of our birthright regarding freedom from fear of government.

On that alone it warrants major steps to investigations regarding threats and intimidation. Reason being the minute your birthrights are violated, the covenant made by this government becomes invalidated and it's up to government to make amends to YOU not the other way around.

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Charles
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In today's news.

.................

Iraqi PM insists peace is possible without U.S.
Al-Maliki claims ‘full confidence’ if coalition forces withdraw ‘at any time’

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19760628/

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Mr. Fun
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If this war is as important as President Bush says it is -- then let's put this nation on a war footing as we have in the past.

Stop shopping and start sacrificing! Initiate the draft tomorrow!

Of course, that'll never happen because we already know this is a bulls**t war. Still, I challenge the President. Are we at war -- or not?

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ApeLad
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Jennifer, I saw that Bill Moyers show too and was going to bring it up here. One excellent point that was made: impeachment is not a constitutional crisis, the framers allowed for impeachment in order to avoid a constitutional crisis.
I, for one, am all for it. If nothing else than to hear the president answers some tough questions that are not being asked by the lilly-livered press.

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OFFBEAT
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Over 906,000 have signed up to impeach bush on www.impeachbush.org [Big Grin]
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Articles of Impeachment

of

President George W. Bush

and

Vice President Richard B. Cheney,
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice,
Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, and
Attorney General Alberto Gonzales

The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors. - - ARTICLE II, SECTION 4 OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

President George W. Bush, Vice President Richard B. Cheney, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, and Attorney General Alberto Gonzales have committed violations and subversions of the Constitution of the United States of America in an attempt to carry out with impunity crimes against peace and humanity and war crimes and deprivations of the civil rights of the people of the United States and other nations, by assuming powers of an imperial executive unaccountable to law and usurping powers of the Congress, the Judiciary and those reserved to the people of the United States, by the following acts:

1) Seizing power to wage wars of aggression in defiance of the U.S. Constitution, the U.N. Charter and the rule of law; carrying out a massive assault on and occupation of Iraq, a country that was not threatening the United States, resulting in the death and maiming of over one hundred thousand Iraqis, and thousands of U.S. G.I.s.

2) Lying to the people of the U.S., to Congress, and to the U.N., providing false and deceptive rationales for war.

3) Authorizing, ordering and condoning direct attacks on civilians, civilian facilities and locations where civilian casualties were unavoidable.

4) Instituting a secret and illegal wiretapping and spying operation against the people of the United States through the National Security Agency.

5) Threatening the independence and sovereignty of Iraq by belligerently changing its government by force and assaulting Iraq in a war of aggression.

6) Authorizing, ordering and condoning assassinations, summary executions, kidnappings, secret and other illegal detentions of individuals, torture and physical and psychological coercion of prisoners to obtain false statements concerning acts and intentions of governments and individuals and violating within the United States, and by authorizing U.S. forces and agents elsewhere, the rights of individuals under the First, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth and Eighth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

7) Making, ordering and condoning false statements and propaganda about the conduct of foreign governments and individuals and acts by U.S. government personnel; manipulating the media and foreign governments with false information; concealing information vital to public discussion and informed judgment concerning acts, intentions and possession, or efforts to obtain weapons of mass destruction in order to falsely create a climate of fear and destroy opposition to U.S. wars of aggression and first strike attacks.

8) Violations and subversions of the Charter of the United Nations and international law, both a part of the "Supreme Law of the land" under Article VI, paragraph 2, of the Constitution, in an attempt to commit with impunity crimes against peace and humanity and war crimes in wars and threats of aggression against Afghanistan, Iraq and others and usurping powers of the United Nations and the peoples of its nations by bribery, coercion and other corrupt acts and by rejecting treaties, committing treaty violations, and frustrating compliance with treaties in order to destroy any means by which international law and institutions can prevent, affect, or adjudicate the exercise of U.S. military and economic power against the international community.

9) Acting to strip United States citizens of their constitutional and human rights, ordering indefinite detention of citizens, without access to counsel, without charge, and without opportunity to appear before a civil judicial officer to challenge the detention, based solely on the discretionary designation by the Executive of a citizen as an "enemy combatant."

10) Ordering indefinite detention of non-citizens in the United States and elsewhere, and without charge, at the discretionary designation of the Attorney General or the Secretary of Defense.

11) Ordering and authorizing the Attorney General to override judicial orders of release of detainees under INS jurisdiction, even where the judicial officer after full hearing determines a detainee is wrongfully held by the government.

12) Authorizing secret military tribunals and summary execution of persons who are not citizens who are designated solely at the discretion of the Executive who acts as indicting official, prosecutor and as the only avenue of appellate relief.

13) Refusing to provide public disclosure of the identities and locations of persons who have been arrested, detained and imprisoned by the U.S. government in the United States, including in response to Congressional inquiry.

14) Use of secret arrests of persons within the United States and elsewhere and denial of the right to public trials.

15) Authorizing the monitoring of confidential attorney-client privileged communications by the government, even in the absence of a court order and even where an incarcerated person has not been charged with a crime.

16) Ordering and authorizing the seizure of assets of persons in the United States, prior to hearing or trial, for lawful or innocent association with any entity that at the discretionary designation of the Executive has been deemed "terrorist."

17) Engaging in criminal neglect in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, depriving thousands of people in Louisiana, Mississippi and other Gulf States of urgently needed support, causing mass suffering and unnecessary loss of life.

18) Institutionalization of racial and religious profiling and authorization of domestic spying by federal law enforcement on persons based on their engagement in noncriminal religious and political activity.

19) Refusal to provide information and records necessary and appropriate for the constitutional right of legislative oversight of executive functions.

20) Rejecting treaties protective of peace and human rights and abrogation of the obligations of the United States under, and withdrawal from, international treaties and obligations without consent of the legislative branch, and including termination of the ABM treaty between the United States and Russia, and rescission of the authorizing signature from the Treaty of Rome which served as the basis for the International Criminal Court.

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Thomas
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Yet no breaking of United States laws. Sorry, no trial for you.

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-Tom

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OFFBEAT
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If invading countries under false pretenses, killing innocent men, women and children for some political self interest isn't a United States law, then the United States is a big douche bag.

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Thomas
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Just like all of those other dead white guys of years past whom have been named the President (Aside from Bush Sr. & Clinton, who last I heard are still above room temperature)?

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ApeLad
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If he hasn't done anything wrong, then an impeachment will prove that. That's how it worked last time anyway.
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Greg B
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Offbeat, invading countries and murdering people without just cause or under false pretenses is not a crime. It's called politics.

We're murderers for profit. Every single last human being and living creature murders for profit. It's called survival.

We're the only creatures who are aware enough to know we don't have to kill today. That's it. We don't have to murder. An old 'Star Trek' episode called 'Spectre of the Gun' illustrates this.

We don't have to murder but we do. That's the tragedy right there. Any race or religion or culture that says it has no history past or present where murder isn't a way of survival is lying through it's teeth.

We justify it because we know it's wrong for us at this point in our history. But we do it for passion and greed and laziness and hate.

Even when we show the beast within that we can grow all the food we want, make shelter, fresh water etc, we still will have to answer to that beast when it's fears manifest themselves and we murder.

So impeaching a president for murdering people is like putting handcuffs on that scorpion who rode the fox's back in the old fable.

The scorpion.

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ApeLad
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Yeah but still. It's a fun read.
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Sketchpad
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quote:
So impeaching a president for murdering people is like putting handcuffs on that scorpion who rode the fox's back in the old fable.
Actually, Greg, that too is covered in the article posted:

Bill Moyers: You just said in one sentence there "impeach Bush and Cheney." You're talking about taking that ax against the head of government, both of them.

John Nichols: No. No, no, no.

Bruce Fein: It's not an ax, Bill.

John Nichols: We're talking -

Bruce Fein: It's not an ax - it's not - Impeachment is not a criminal proceeding.

John Nichols: You are being -

Bruce Fein: - we cannot entrust the reins of power, unchecked power, with these people. They're untrustworthy. They're asserting theories of governments that are monarchical. We don't want them to exercise it. We don't want Hillary Clinton or Rudy Giuliani or anyone in the future to exercise that.

John Nichols: Bill Moyers, you are making a mistake. You are making a mistake that too many people make.

Bill Moyers: Yes.

John Nichols: You are seeing impeachment as a constitutional crisis. Impeachment is the cure for a constitutional crisis. Don't mistake the medicine for the disease. When you have a constitutional crisis, the founders are very clear. They said there is a way to deal with this. We don't have to have a war. We don't have to raise an army and go to Washington. We have procedures in place where we can sanction a president appropriately, do what needs to be done up to the point of removing him from office and continue the republic. So we're not talking here about taking an ax to government. Quite the opposite. We are talking about applying some necessary strong medicine that may cure not merely the crisis of the moment but, done right-

Bruce Fein: Moreover, it's -

John Nichols: - might actually cure -

Bruce Fein: It's not an attack on Bush and Cheney in the sense of their personal - attacks. Listen, if you impeach them, they can live happily ever after into their-

John Nichols: And go to San Clemente.

Bruce Fein: Yes, go to San Clemente or go back to the ranch or whatever. But it's saying no, it's the Constitution that's more important than your aggrandizing of power. And not just for you because the precedent that would be set would bind every successor in the presidency as well, no matter Republican, Democrat, Independent, or otherwise.

John Nichols: The fact of the matter is that, again, the genius of impeachment is it tells the president that, wow, there is a Congress. And that Congress is on your case. And it causes, I think at its best, it causes a president to want to prove he can cooperate, to want to prove he can live within the law.

Bruce Fein: Can I interrupt just a second here?

Bill Moyers: Yeah, sure, sure.

Bruce Fein: 'Cause it seems to me very important. I think that if impeachment proceedings began and the president and the vice-president sat back and said, "We understand now. We both understand. We renounce this claim. No military commissions. We're going to comply with the law," the impeachment proceedings ought to stop and they should. It's not trying to be punitive and recriminate against the officials but you've got to get it right. And it's that what I hope would happen.

I've said if the president now renouncing the power and said, "It was wrong and I now respect and honor the separation and the genius of the founding fathers," that's great. And all of the purpose of impeachment would have been accomplished. They could stay in office and we'd have the greatest precedent with regards to executive authority and the separation of powers and checks and balances. This is not an effort to try to blacken the names of the president and vice-president. And nothing would gratify me more than having them stand up and say, "Yeah, I've thought about this now. My mind is concentrated wonderfully," as Sam Johnson would say. The prospect of impeachment, I've been convinced.

John Nichols: But also we would have hit that educational moment, that rare moment where a president of the United States has been forced to - go before the American people and say, "Oh, yeah, I just remembered, you're the boss. You are the bosses. Not me. And that I am not a king." Again, this is why raising impeachment at this point, it's a very late point, is so important. Because we are defining what the presidency will be in the future today because we do know the high crimes and misdemeanors of George Bush and Dick Cheney. They have been well illustrated even by a - rather lax media. They have been discussed in Congress

If we know these things and we do not hold them to account, then we are saying, as a people and as a Congress, we are saying that we can find out that you have violated the rule of law. We can find out that you have disregarded the Constitution. You - we can find out that you've done harm to the republic. But there will still be no penalty for that. If that's the standard that we've set, it will hold. It will not be erased in the future.

Bruce Fein: One of the lessons we should have learned from the Nixon impeachment is that it didn't quite fulfill its purpose because Nixon was never compelled to renounce what he'd done.

John Nichols: Yes.

Bruce Fein: And after which he boasted that what the president does it it's legal. He wasn't repentant at all. If we had insisted maybe as a condition of the pardon or otherwise, you need to repent. We are a government of laws, not of men. And it's wrong for anyone to assert unchecked power. That would have had such a pedagogical effect that would have deterred anything in the future. We've got to make certain this time around we get that proper acknowledgement from the -

John Nichols: - there was a group of members, Democratic members of the House, who went to Tipp O'Neil and to-

Bill Moyers: Then speaker of the House.

John Nichols: - back in 1974, after Nixon had resigned, and said, "We must continue the impeachment process." It's - it is under the Constitution certainly appropriate to do so. And we must continue it because we have to close the circle on presidential power. And the leaders in Congress, the Democratic leaders in Congress at the time said, "No, the - country has suffered too much." Well, this is the problem. Our leaders treat us as children. They think that we cannot handle a serious dialogue about the future of our republic, about what it will be and how it will operate. And so, you know, to an extent, we begin to act like children. We, you know, follow other interests. We decide to be entertained rather than to be citizens.

Well, you know, and Bruce makes frequent references to the fall of the Roman Empire. You know, that's the point at where the fall comes. It doesn't come because of a bad leader. It doesn't come because of a dysfunctional Congress. It comes when the people accept that - role of the child or of the subject and are no longer citizens. And so I think this moment becomes so very, very important because we know the high crimes and misdemeanors.

The people themselves have said, if the polls are correct, that, you know, something ought to be done. If nothing is done, if we do not step forward at this point, if we do not step up to this point, then we have, frankly, told the people, you know, you can even recognize that the king has no clothes, but we're not gonna put any clothes on him. And at that point, the country is in very, very dire circumstances.

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OFFBEAT
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I know how politics work.. i'm just angry that self interest costs the lives of our brave soldiers who joined the armed forces under the false pretenses of defending our country and freedoms.

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akinney
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So, when Hitler invaded countries and started killing people it was just politics? No crimes, just politics? Wow, I would beg to differ. I wonder why, then, so many German leaders were tried for WAR CRIMES at Nuremberg???
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Greg B
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akinney, Hitler? You forget who funded him and his war machine. Lemme give you some names:

Rockefeller, Bush, Hearst...

To name just a few. Matter of fact President Bush's grandfather was arrested and lost his family fortune in the early days of WWII for supporting the enemy. Same family via the Standard Oil company are still at it. Gotta have them wars and that oil fighting. Makes tons of money and keeps the middle class middle and the poor obedient.

Nothing wrong with that. That's the right-wing way. Fund wars, chase little boys. They live for that.

If we're going to impeach anyone we should impeach every governor of every state in the Union for negligence regarding the illegal immigrants issue. You won't see that because it makes more money for the ruling class than loses money for the ruling class.

That's all that matters dude! How much money are they making vs how much money are they losing. Once you cross the line of poor to wealthy you'll be the same way. Why? Because as soon as you're wealthy you fall under attack and have to keep making more money to protect what you have.

All kidding aside, here's the dangerous mindset. There are organizations and groups that focus on nothing more than wealth and the subjugation of their fellow man. Their only concern is whether their statistics are going up or if their statistics are going down. Doesn't matter who was murdered, raped, jailed, beaten as long as the weekly envelopes are fat and not thin.

That's it in a nutshell bro. You can tear ass across the galaxy but if your weekly envelope to the boss is thin, you have a week to make up or you get whacked.

How all this came to be is because of nothing more than greed and fear.

If you've ever been around the super wealthy like I have you'll see two types of people, one group just complacent with wealth and leaves the dirty work to their underlings whilst they put on public airs of social conscience and benevolence and two, downright evil, racist, spiteful bastards whose underlings are just a mirror of them. Today we call em' the neocons. They're so guilty and aware of the fact that their wealth was made from the murder and subjugation of others that they constantly justify this crap via the media like Rush Limbaugh. They have to have that constant reassurance or they'll die from their own souls consuming them.

That's what you're up against. Evil and greed on levels both physical and spiritual. You're an artist, whip up some political cartoons, twist the knife. Evil hates cartoonists. We're the only people who can make villains laugh hard enough to realize they're doin' wrong. We're sort of like the conscience of the arts. Nothin' reaches further than a toon.

Let the revenge of the cartoonists begin.

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eboles
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It's an unnecessary diversion to get into the whole rich vs poor dynamic, when there are specific problems here that have specific causes and specific people that are responsible for creating the mess.

You can go into the politics of it, and make generalisations, and create a lot more clutter and confusion than is warranted. They have think-tanks that will produce mountains of documents that supposedly justify the courses of action that have been taken. As impressive and overwhelming as this may seem, don't forget that these are only rationalisations. They knew what they wanted to do, and then it's really just a matter of inventing some noble reason for doing it. And if you see the way some of them talk, it's like they're experts at convincing themselves of their own lies and rationalisations.

You have to take a step back. Do you think the Nazi's didn't rationalise what they were doing at every step of the way? Do you think they could've done what they did in Auschwitz and Belsen if there hadn't been people who believed in what they were doing? Just because it seems like there are good honest reasons for what you are doing, can you really level with yourself about why you're actually doing it?

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Tobias A. Wolf
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For me, I think the impeachment process needs to begin to help clarify the boundaries of executive privilege above all else. When that privilege is used as a possible obstruction into investigations of "treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors" then I think there are serious grounds for Impeachment.

Clearly this statute of the office has been used in the broadest possible way and to the point of abuse by this President, so I think we need some clearer delineation on these rights of the executive. And I can't think of a better way to begin finding those lines other than the Impeachment process. I don't trust the courts that have been packed with political operatives to decide this. Given the attorney scandal, one can only imagine what shambles remain of a impartial judiciary. This question has to start to be decided in our House. Executive privilege is just what it says, a privilege, not a right.

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Greg B
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One thing we need to clarify and that is the term "executive privilege" appears no where in the Constitution.

However, it is recognized by the Supreme Court.

So we need to review how that came about.

Bottom line is don't hold your breath waiting for justice and reason in this day and age. It's not gonna happen.

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Sketchpad
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Half the American People voted for the Bush Administration the second time around because they trusted the Administration to do its job for the people and for the country.

The Administration not only didn't do its job, but it also refuses to do its job (and then they pass the blame to someone else when things go wrong, or they completely ignore what goes wrong and then pass the blame).

I don't believe Americans that voted for Bush will be spending too much time blaming themselves over crooks that set out to intimidate, con, dupe, lie, and abuse them. The country is still somewhat in the hands of Americans, but its certainly slipping away - don't expect Cheney and Rove to just go quietly doing nothing while they are still holding the reins.

Not interested in seeing this country name changed to the United States of Bush, Cheney & Co., but it seems to be like that already without the title change.

Btw Greg, I see the lesson this way:

Politics can fool countries into invading and murdering people without just cause or under false pretenses, AND it can also fool people into believing it's not a crime. [Wink]

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JATG
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quote:
One thing we need to clarify and that is the term "executive privilege" appears no where in the Constitution.

However, it is recognized by the Supreme Court.

Nor does the term "separation of Church and State."

Not to highjack the thread but Bush isn't the first guy to evoke the phrase "executive privilege."

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Thomas
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A brief history of Executive Priviledge

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Chris Roman
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Waitasec...didn't Cheney just a few weeks ago say he WASN'T a member of the executive branch, but the legislative? Does that mean he can't invoke executive privilege?
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Thomas
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Cheney is a part of the Legislative branch in the sense that if there were a tie vote in the Senate then he could break it by placing a vote. Al Gore did that on a few occasions if I remember correctly. He is of course next in line of succession if anything were to happen to the President. Other than that he doesn’t have much power.

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Greg B
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Well the Dow hit 14k today! A first! All time high! The oil profits are through the roof.

As I said earlier, the mindset of these psychotics is that nothing matters except profits. High statistics and fat envelopes. Nothing else matters. Not your life, not your family's well being. Not the U.S. not the Bible nothing matters to these groups.

We've had millions illegally enter the country and murder and rape and steal. We've got a health care crisis, and who knows what other disasters but as long as those figures are 'up' f-you.

Remember, this is the Universe where slavery and the Holocaust happened. This isn't the Happy Camper Universe, people here wear goatees, have henchmen, secret lairs.

Sweet dreams.

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Greg B
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btw, the older they get Cheney and Bush remind me of Simon Bar Sinister and Cad.

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JATG
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Oh good grief Greg, can you give the hyperbole a rest?

The stock market doing well doesn't just benefit some made up fat cat CEO oil baron. The stock market doing well benefits everyone with a retirement account.

I've got no problem enjoying being in a country with a roaring economy. I've got a job in animation, I've paid off my credit cards and my vehicle, I'm accruing a nice little nest egg...all of which I've worked bleeping hard for.

Save your liberal guilt and Bush derangement syndrome for someone else.

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Thomas
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Good thing for me that I qualify in your little world view Greg. As I want the greatest profit I can possibly muster for my Corporation. This is a roaring economy. I am already making really nice money so far this year and am steadily expanding accordingly. I want, want, want: more! more! more!

Not much matters more to my life than my fat paycheck. I’m looking forward to my next one so I can grow my greedy business and can employ more artists.

All because I chose to KEEP CREATING.

Do any of that lately, Greg?

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Greg B
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JATG, I love to engage in hyperbole. Nice catch there!
[rasberry]

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