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Author Topic: War In The Middle East
Greg B
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/04/AR2006080400919.html?nav=r ss_nation

See what I mean about the Bush Cabinet? They're all honest guys. Even after both elections and 9/11 and both wars people have been accusing them of all sorts of stuff but not one person got busted.

Oops except Bush's domestic advisor Claude Allen.

Big deal. Pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor.

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Greg B
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My sister reminded me that we have several great aunts and uncles to whom this latest war or World War III, is their third world war.

Sure they were young during WWI but old enough to remember the details.

The first reaction from one of my uncles was that he could never understand how people could still be fighting after all the technological miracles especially in farming that have occured. He said that he remembered when people's first fears were God, starvation and critters. Now it's the government.

Things sure turned around.

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Charles
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This graphic is helping in getting an idea about the diplomatic relationships that exist between Israel and the rest of the world.

The countries in green maintain no diplomatic relationship with Israel. Notice that both Cuba and North Korea are among them.


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Caracal
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I'm very saddened that my predictions in my first post have occured. I had some hope when Israel showed restraint and held back for awhile from crossing over the border that a diplomatic soulution could be realized.

Except that in all the diplomatic scurrying Hezbollah has been totally ignored. The pink elephant in the room!

Listening in amazament to Bush as he lumps Hezbollah into his simple minded concept of "terrorists" as if they were all one unified enemy with the single goal to destroy America and freedom. In south Lebanon these guys are freedom fighters. He cant be that dense so I guess he assumes we are.

Maybe I've missed this but is anyone discussing in the diplomatic dialog whether Israel would broker a deal with Syria to give back the Golan Heights and adhere to the UN resoultions on the region? If that happened I think Syria would be able to get Hezbollah to cease fire.

Cheers

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quote:
He cant be that dense
Uh, maybe he is?

Ambassador claims shortly before Iraq invasion, Bush didn't know there were two sects of Islam

Excerpt:
A year after his “Axis of Evil” speech before the U.S. Congress, President Bush met with three Iraqi Americans, one of whom became postwar Iraq’s first representative to the United States. The three described what they thought would be the political situation after the fall of Saddam Hussein. During their conversation with the President, Galbraith claims, it became apparent to them that Bush was unfamiliar with the distinction between Sunnis and Shiites.

Galbraith reports that the three of them spent some time explaining to Bush that there are two different sects in Islam--to which the President allegedly responded, “I thought the Iraqis were Muslims!”

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Steve G
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quote:
Maybe I've missed this but is anyone discussing in the diplomatic dialog whether Israel would broker a deal with Syria to give back the Golan Heights and adhere to the UN resoultions on the region? If that happened I think Syria would be able to get Hezbollah to cease fire.


You're very naive if you think any concession Israel could make would satisfy Syria or Hizbollah.

The only concession that any of them will accept is Israel being pushed into the sea. That way they can get back to killing one another.

Until you stop assuming that these freedom fighters want peace and they would actually have a place in a peacetime government then you're living in a fantasy.

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Greg B
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It's sad to see this come to pass.

I was reminded by some family members that there are only around 12-18 million Jews on Earth. 6 million in Israel and the rest spread over the world. Mainly in the U.S.

They have to fight to the finish or they'll be finished.

We get these arguments in a family as massive and diverse as mine. It's like going to a UN Assembly meeting. I don't know how we've made it all these years. Just that we remember what it was like because we took pictures, films, and kept records.

Israel won't stop, it can't stop. It's not interested in ending up in a quagmire through negotiations. You can't negotiate with crazy people. The U.S. and U.N. love negotiating with crazy people and allowing them the time to regroup and get crazier.

No Hezzbolah. End of story there. Lebanon couldn't or wouldn't contain them so Lebanon is feeling the ferocity. It's like us kicking out the Mafia or organized crime in general. It's too embedded for us to remove without massive bloodshed and an economic collapse.

Syria and the other Muslim countries are just sabre rattling. They won't lift a finger to defend Lebanon. It's like the guys running Indonesia. Like Indonesia can do something. Yes they have a massive muslim population but how are they gonna deploy anything that resembles a fighting force? Use the Professor from Gilligan to invent coconut and palm tree battleships?

Iraq and Iran can't do squat. Syria is too scared and Saudi Arabia doesn't want any fighting because the royalty don't want their **** all messed up.

Russia? It's huge muslim population do anything?

Nope. By the time they mobilized Russia or China would blast them off the planet. Same with China's muslim population that is huge. They might know kung fu but they can't mobilize.

Right now they're sitting ducks and they know it.

Lord help them if one, just one of those rockets hit's Tel Aviv.

They'd have to call on Pakistan to help but that's about as much likely as common sense in government.

Pakistan can't mobilize a foot army and supply food. Besides the numbers needed would leave them open to attack from India and China who hate them already.

Israel, with enough support and manpower could kick the region's ass before anyone got out of bed to eat their Rice Krispies.

Nukes and other weapons at their disposal and the means to deliver them.

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LeftyMcKay
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Not quite off topic: Reuters Doctoring Photos from Beirut?

Before you click on the link, see if you can tell what's wrong with this Reuters photo:
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Jasen
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Yeah That was the first thing that caught my eye in that picture, I was thinking, it looks like someone is new at using the Clone Tool. but I couldn't be positive if that is what you wanted us to find so I kept looking.
BTW I don't think the general public would catch this.

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Jasen
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Wow- look what I found. (This is teetering on the edge of being on topic, but still a good read)

Tom Brokaw addressed the 2006 Stanford graduating class. After the initial pleasantries and one-liners, Mr. Brokaw said something unexpected. He told the class that they were the children of privilege, fortunate to be attending one of the finest educational institutions in the country, the anointed because they had both the test scores for admittance and parents who were able to afford their tuition. He noted that they could likely expect rapid advancement in almost any endeavor they choose and that they were destined to lead the most powerful country in the world. The class was beaming.

And then Brokaw reminded them that the liberties and freedoms they enjoyed were being defended by young people their age that did not have their advantages. That at this time thousands of men and women were fighting, dying and suffering debilitating injury to ensure that the rest of us could live the American dream.

There was an uncomfortable shifting in the seats, followed by slow but growing applause from the audience.......


http://www.americanthinker.com/comments.php?comments_id=5540

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SquarejawHero
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It's worth remembering that by pandering into thinking, as some of our leaders and the media seem to do, this war is about "Muslims and Jews" you're actually pandering to the extremists who'd like people to think so. The situation is far, far more complicated than that. Lebanon is a country whose parliament is divided into the three major religions; Druze, Muslim (with its various sects) and Christian. Hezebollah, who happen to be Muslim Sh'ia, are quite happy to make this all about religion as this gives them the air of victims being persecuted. Don't let this get to you - they are the largest independent army in that region, they're far from victims and they far from represent the Lebanese.

I agree with Greg in that Israel know that diplomatically, many countries in that area's hands are tied and because they're not recognised - as Charles has pointed out - by some potential allies, diplomatic negotiations on Lebanon's behalf aren't going to happen anytime soon. Considering many of those countries also have their own internal and regional problems, the chances of them helping anyone out on any level is very slim.

Also, can we continue this thread by being careful when choosing words? There are readers on this board from countries around the world... for the sake of the wider community and readership from outside the States - as far as Pakistan. Please remember this as the situation in Lebanon develops and commentary and discussion continues.

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Greg B
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http://www.lgic.org/en/lebam_fulllist.php

That url above links to a website that lists Americans of Lebanese descent who have achieved fame and recognition for their contributions.

Let me detail something here. In my family, which is huge and a mix of every race and culture you can dish out, we have family of course from Lebanon. They didn't just arrive out of the clear blue sky. They've been here damn near 150 years. They were Christians from Lebanon who were escaping invaders and Ottoman empire stuff as this website points out.

For decades they lived and worked here in the states. Many right along side of cousins of mine that were Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and religions I dare not mention.

They all have funny stories told about making it in the U.S. How many of them were first thought to be Italians or Native Americans. Some married into a variety of different ethnic groups.

When you see this list above hopefully you'll see what many of us are going through who have family and friends from Lebanon. On that list alone are people I'm sure you all adore and admire as do I.

Fooksie, yes, there is another word for describing these people in the conflicts on both sides:

Family.

We need to stop these global territorial names and realize something an Italian cousin of mine said. In all the past thousands of years, empires and kingdoms and governments have risen and fallen but our families are still here. Generally the same last names, living in the same places. When all is said and done, when all the flags and anthems and nonsense is peeled away, only we, the family still remain. Then he smacked me upside my head and told me one day we'll realize what the real power of this world is and when we do, we'll be able to turn it into a paradise.

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LeftyMcKay
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Worth watching - how the media is manipulating news from the Middle East:
Pallywood

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Charles
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If this conflict and the continuing World War on Terror is of concern to you, this is an absolute must see video.

It's a documentary entitled "Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West". It's an hour and 17 minutes long. I encourage you to make time to watch this through to the end. All people need to see this.

http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=-2967276362246845611&q=obsession+islam

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Tobias A. Wolf
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Just to indulge the idea of this being World War III here; what sides do the powers take?

Let's say Britain sides with the U.S. and Israel, France and Germany side with China and most of the rest of the world. We become the new Axis power in reverse. Only this time it's the Arabs being exterminated at high levels. Ugly thought, no?

Obviously it doesn't have to happen this way. Although maybe it already is to some extent, considering the fact that Lebanese to Israeli civilian casualties are approaching 10 to 1 based on the figures I've heard. In point of fact, on some level, they are being exterminated.

Let's be honest; who is driving who into non-existence?

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Greg B
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It's WWIII and I'm listening to Nickleback from now on.

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Steve G
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It is nowhere remotely a WW III scenario and the only ones that need to be driven into oblivion are the Hizbollah and other extremists that don't want peace.
This has more to do with an internal Muslim struggle between the Shi'ites and the Sunnis then with anything else. If Hizbollah can be the destoyers of Israel it will help them considerably. From what I've heard many of the Arab countries are secretly rooting for Israel to destroy Hizbollah so this tribal warfare will stop.
If Lebanon and their backers would force them to disarm and participate in efforts towards peace Israel wouldn't be reacting the way they are. Is it an overreaction? Probably, but not having lived in a country that is constantly under terrorist attack I'm not sure I can properly gauge their reaction. Can you?

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Greg B
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Um, this war is still going on. Wasn't there supposed to be some peace deal that the U.S. and France had cooked up?

Israel and the Hezzbolah aren't listening.

How come the Hezzbolah haven't surrendered already? Where are they getting the fresh troops? Why haven't they run out of rockets yet?

They must've had a lot of time going to have collected all those rockets and nobody noticed it.

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Fooksie
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http://www.theonion.com/content/node/51159

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Tobias A. Wolf
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quote:
Is it an overreaction? Probably, but not having lived in a country that is constantly under terrorist attack I'm not sure I can properly gauge their reaction. Can you?
No I can't, I can only see this conflict through an outsiders perspective. Of which, all of us in the states are. Conversely this means that you can't really gauge it either. But based on the numbers of civilian causalities, and extraordinary infrastructure damage done to Lebanon in comparison to Israel; it appears to this outsider that a major injustice is unfolding.

Although it's not an original insight by any means, Israeli society is addicted to the idea of ever present enemies that result in drastic actions that continually manifest those fears into reality.

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Steve G
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That's right...it's all in their heads....my mistake.

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Steve G
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A little Photo fraud

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akinney
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watched that video - glad i did. makes me realize that there is nothing bad happening to innocent civilians in Lebanon and if i see any pictures or read anything saying otherwise I am complicit in aiding Hezbolah and out to shame and distort the image of Israel. Glad I saw it because I wouldn't want to do that. You're either with Israel or you're with the terrorists, right? You can't feel sympathy for the innocent life lost without being Hezbolah's #1 fan, right? [Roll Eyes]
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Steve G
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So, if you want to be sympathetic to civilians it's okay to doctor photographs and stage events.
Be symmpathetic, but don't be manipulated.

Try being sympathetic to innocent Israelis while you're at it. Or can you only have empathy to one group at a time?

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SquarejawHero
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@Greg - for Hezbollah, read: "Syria" and "Iran". That'll answer your questions. Their thinking goes something along the lines of - Why wage a war when you can get others to do it for you?

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akinney
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I didn't say that - but the video presents the attitude that this is being done on a mass scale to smear Israel. The video has the "you're with the terrorists or with us" attitude that is shameful. The video has a political purpose that is to make "liberal" outlets like the NY Times are out to lie about everything and that the pictures are being doctored to RAISE SYMPATHY FOR HEZBOLAH. The creator of the video hasn't stopped for 10 seconds to think that maybe they were doctored to RAISE SYMPATHY FOR CIVILIANS (because I don't see a lot of aid getting their quickly). You know what, if doctoring a couple photos can get somebody in power off their ass for 10 seconds to try to stop all of the kids from getting killed I'm all for it. As for the scuffle between the Israeli Army and Hezbollah, I hope they both wipe each other off the map. I don't support either and I'm so tired of hearing about their wonderful, peaceful, chosen religion.

What gets me is that if somebody found doctored photos after 9/11 of people being pulled from rubble and made a video while the horror was still fresh the US would have been furious. We would have been like "so, a couple idiots doctor photos to further their career and ALL of our tragedy is now a lie and is all staged?" I wonder how many REAL photos of crying women and dead children and bodies this guy had to sort through to find those fakes?

* PS - I do sympathize for the Israeli civilians, I have yet to see, however, that scores of them have been wiped out in a single pass, you can't deny that the massive civilian casualties have been pretty much one side. Note, I said massive. If you have a cut on your hand or a massive head wound that is bleeding out of control, which do you treat first? It seems if you turn on the news the browner corpses get the least screen time.

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Steve G
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Doctored photos of news events are never acceptable - just as doctored stories. It doesn't matter what it gets peopel to do. You are obviously of the mind that it doesn't matter what tactics you take as long as you achieve your goal. You must enjoy press coverage via Fox news...?
And just because Israel has more power and the ability to defend themselves better than what you believe Hizbollah has doesn't make them in the wrong.

It would be nice if wars could be fought without civilian casualties - so far that's not a possiblity. Israel bends over backwards to alert civilians ahead of time when they are going to attack so they have time to clear out. But when you have terrorists hiding amongst the civilians it becomes very dificult to avoid all innocents.

If you think that if only Israel and Hizbollah were destroyed (what a stupid statement) and then the Middle East could live in peace you're very naive.
Where do you live that you think the 'brown' civilians get less news time than the 'white' ones?

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akinney
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you're right. none of the civilian casualties could be avoided - restraint should not be shown. 10 pictures that were doctored definately show that the hundreds of thousands of other images are probably a bunch of crap too. i get all of my news from fox which is totally sympathetic to the Lebanese people.
i also totally believe that if hezbolah and the israeli army were gone the middle east would look like Willy Wonka's factory - because I said that was the solution. Sorry my anger at seeing dead children who have no part in this led me astray. I've seen the light and learned to accept that the blood that spills is just unfortunate and that if we can get to peace through a road littered with corpses of kids we still got to peace. i don't sympathize with the native american children that got slaughtered by US troops now either, they should have moved out of the way! let's get those muslim bastards, get out of the way everybody. [Wink]


PS - thanks for addressing: "What gets me is that if somebody found doctored photos after 9/11 of people being pulled from rubble and made a video while the horror was still fresh the US would have been furious. We would have been like "so, a couple idiots doctor photos to further their career and ALL of our tragedy is now a lie and is all staged? And PS guy - can't you help pull bodies from the rubble instead" I wonder how many REAL photos of crying women and dead children and bodies this guy had to sort through to find those fakes?"

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Steve G
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So you think I didn't address your ridiculous statement by saying it's never okay to doctor news photos?...grow up.

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akinney
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no, steve, i was saying you didn't address my comments on how our priorities should NOT be on a few doctored photos that some journalists did and instead should be on the people who are dying. my comments were pointing out that if this were 9/11 people would have told the guy who made that film to shut up because we have more important things to worry about right now - like all of the suffering. you missed that point i guess. althought it is wrong to doctor photos, don't we have more to worry about right now? aren't those messed up priorities? shouldn't that be dealt with later?

also, please save you father-like "grow up" comments, it's not my fault you didn't read careful enough to get my point.

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Steve G
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quote:
if this were 9/11 people would have told the guy who made that film to shut up because we have more important things to worry about right now
My mistake -- I didn't realize you were trying to make the point that it was okay to put aside media lies until they could be more conviently dealt with. The subtle shading alluded me.

Okay, I'll directly respond to that statement: you are wrong. If someone in the press lies or doctors photos for any reason they should be called on it immediately. If I had to make a choice about which to care about (and you seem to think that 'people' can only care about one thing at a time) then I would have to choose the media lying and manipulating as more important then innocent children dying in Lebanon.
Thankfully I can care about both things....can't you?
Is that clear enough for you?

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akinney
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understood, steve, i just hope that you don't help me at a car accident - with your logic all priorities are the same so while I bleed on the ground you'll be looking for my registration because you can multi-task. [funny]
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Steve G
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Wow...that's a REALLY bad analogy.

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akinney
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okay, i'll call it what it is: instead of being concerned about the proven loss of scores of innocent people, you're more concerned over a very small % of the pictures taken that were doctored.

letting the photographer off the hook is wrong but putting that issue above the death is pretty disturbing. Let's just conentrate on Mel Gibson's DUI and those photos and forget the most important task at hand, right?

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JATG
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I'm going to wade in here.

My thoughts:

1. Innocents are dying in Israel and Lebanon.
2. Hezzies fired first.
3. Israel has been under attack from the day it was created.
4. Israel has had to deal with innocent dead civilians, (men/women/children) for YEARS.
5. Hezzies are currently trying to indiscrimately kill every Jew they can. In short, they want to wipe Israel off the map.
6. Israelis are specifically targeting Hezzie bases. Israel wants to survive.
7. Hezzies are deliberately setting up their bases in playgrounds/hospitals/mosques/other civilian areas in hopes the Jews DO fire at them.
8. Hezzies are deliberately staging scenes for photographers to play off our western sensibilities. In short...they are determined to win the "sympathy of the world."
9. We have a media that seems to be complicit in this desire by doctoring photos, lying about what is happening and manipulating the news.
10. In Aramic, the word "cease fire" translates to "reload."
11. If we hadn't had all these ineffectual UN cease fires all these years the Hezzies wouldn't BE so freakin' entrenched.

So...who is more accountable for the dead Lebanese civilians...and yes, it IS sad/tragic/war is hell?

Hezbollah is much more accountable for their dead civilians that they SET UP AS TARGETS ON PURPOSE!

Sure, weep for the children but be angry at the ones who set them up as targets, be angry at a UN who has allowed "appeasement" for years to let this situation fester.

But as for me, I will cheer on the people who are finally tired of "land for peace" and "show restraint" and "cease fire" and are defending their very rights of existence.

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Charles
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War is a very ugly business. It's all about killing people. When you demand a holy war, then get a holy war, don't cry about it when your ass is thoroughly kicked in.

Present day Hezzieland was vacated by Israel six years ago. A UN resolution called for the disarming of the Hezbolah militias. Instead, an estimated 13,000 rockets were brought in, tunnels were dug, the Hezzie militia was further armed and trained, provoked the conflict and Israel gets all the blame when they fight back.

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Greg B
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What JATG said.

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Smeeb!
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I agree with JATG as well.
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akinney
IE # 167
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"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent" - Mahatma Gandhi

"ABC, NBC, CBS - bulls**t. They give us fact or fiction, I guess an even split. And each new act of war is tonight's entertainment, we're still the pawns in their game. As they take eye for an eye until no one can see, we must stumble blindly forth repeating history. Well I guess we all fit into your slogan on that fast food marquee - red blooded, white skinned oh and the blues. Oh and the blues, I got the blues, that's me!" - Bright EYes

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Steve G
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quote:
Even as late as June 1946, when the extent of the Holocaust had emerged, Gandhi told biographer Louis Fisher: "The Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher's knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs."


He wasn't always spot on...

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