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Author Topic: War In The Middle East
Charles
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LeftyMcKay
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Like this one, Jasen?

Palestinian Child Abuse

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Charles
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Upon Jasen's suggestion, I've done a search on YouTube to see what I can find about how the other side thinks. It's always a very good idea to look at the how an opponent sees things.


Here's a Jihadist video from Iraq:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNknwGbAK9k&search=jihad


Here's an Iraqi Palestinian Jihadist video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INPQiLaT3x0&search=jihad

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Charles
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Who's right and who's wrong?

If there's ever going to be peace in the region, then all perspectives must be considered or at least listened to for a few minutes.

Here's a view of Zionism which may or may not be entirely accurate, but it seems to reflect the opinions of orthodox observers of Judaism who object to Zionism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZvdpBHgcZI&search=zionism

How the Orthodox Jews view Zionism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTd08SPfckg&search=zionism

The conflict in Judaism over Zionism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dSHl3C9kgY&search=zionism

Orthodx Jews and rabbis in support of Palestine. Even carrying Palestinian flags in demonstrations in the US. Do you think the contrary would be possible in countries that embrace Islamic fascism? Imagine the same thing happening in Palestine or Iran with citizens sympathetic to peace with Israel carrying Israeli flags.

No chance. And if they did, it would be a certain death sentence.

If there's ever going to be peace, then peace has to be taught to the kids.

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Jasen
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Lefty- Thanks but that 1st link isn't working for me. Although that 2nd link is down right scary & depressing. I mean look at this kid, shouldn't he be somewhere watching Sponge Bob Square Pants or something? Instead of this…

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Charles
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More videos to watch and learn from. This one features one of the founders of Hamas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnf4zTLziv4&mode=related&search=zionism

This one has some disturbing footage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5aVUZAX6wA&mode=related&search=

Nobody's right if everybody's wrong.

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SquarejawHero
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Up to 600 people have been killed in Lebanon so far, a third of which are children. Makes you think, doesn't it. I'm sure people will say this is because Hezebollah were using them as shields... and I'm not suprised... but not all of them.

The funny thing is Arabs really care about family, about their children. Having spent time in Malaysia recently and crossing over through Bahrain and Muscat, what struck me was just how many large families there were wrecking havoc.

Arab people are generally very, very proud about their families. On one flight I sat with a white Irish woman who'd spent ten years living in Kuwait. As chaos from the kids running around occured in the cabin, she told me that this attitude of pride was particularly reactive when a white person tries to get them to cool it. An inferiority complex, if you will.

Certainly, wandering about the bird gardens a group of Arabic kids were actively encouraged by their father to scare the living **** out of the poor feathered friends. My girlfriend was quite prepared to go do some shouting at them, but they moved away (they were quite ahead of us).

Thing is, I guess I'm saying, it's easy to generalise. But then some generalisations tend to be true. Then, sometimes you find yourself suprised... I spoke to an Arab woman about the conflict, from Muscat, and she professed that the majority of her friends were simply glad to be live so far away from that region. She didn't respect Israel for reacting the way they did, but she didn't respect Hezebollah for starting it off and bringing war to Lebanon.

Bearing in mind how many Lebanese are Christian, and how many outside of the Hezebollah controlled regimes have moved away, it makes you wonder what the majority population of Lebanon thought before and after the conflict.

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SquarejawHero
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Bint Jzail, where 9 Israeli military were killed in heavy fighting, has a website.

Here's photo's from before the conflict. Bearing in mind Hezebollah deliberately provoked this conflict, they're sad to look at. They KNEW that all this progress, the pretty border town, the day-to-day life would be destroyed. All the effort put into it, presumably by people who've lived their all their lives, like villages across the states and the UK, destroyed. Destroying themselves. And for what? How many people there wanted this? The Israeli command fear that Hezebollah have kept civilians trapped in the town and there's a big argument whether to level it with carpet bombs or maintain precise strikes.

Makes you wonder what's happening inside, eh?

Meanwhile the war goes on in their guestbook. With black/white attitudes like this there's no hope for peace on either side.

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Charles
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This is the 21st Century. There should be peace. Everyone should be able to leave in peace.

Diverse viewpoints. In support of Lebanon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogiSMfjOrk0&mode=related&search=

In support of Israel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6ZW590OMRQ&mode=related&search=

Lebanese author lashing out at Hezbollah:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpBbnF4d2eU&mode=related&search=

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SquarejawHero
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Here's an inside view on arabic terrorism that reveals the culture that's developed in that region.

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Charles
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Gimme Shelter. A brief history of the current conflict set to the music of the infidel Rolling Stones.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G379w5G1ydM&mode=related&search=

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Charles
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Here we go.

This is a cartoon produced for the children of Palestine. It aired on Hezzbollah's TV station in 2002.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM-XeaIn06g&mode=related&search=

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Charles
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Thank Allah for YouTube. This is a sermon by a Muslim cleric in a Gaza mosque during Friday services. It was broadcast on Palestinian TV a few years ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmnpMXOpaM4&mode=related&search=

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Charles
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"Shahada" is the Arabic word for martyrdom. Here's how a couple of Palestinian kids feel about Shahada.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Em-MnAYiEWk&NR

The parting words of a suicide bomber.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owMoT1MKXDQ&mode=related&search=

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SquarejawHero
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Those video's are tough watching. But despite how extreme they are, they represent the EXTREME. But if you check your Shahada link, you'll also find the other side of the story in the comments section. Both sides have committed and are committing horrendous atrocities.

Actually, reading the comments is actually just as shocking. Seems like there's no balance to any of it, just "kill the arabs" or "kill the jews"... entrenched hate, and tons of factual errors inbetween.

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Greg B
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Charles you're an admirable chap with a wonderful optimistic attitude. I salute you.

However, the reality is these forces cannot have peace. It's not going to happen. Ask any primatologist and they'll tell you.

If the U.S., Russia, and China all turned to the middle eastern countries including Israel and said,

" You have 12 hours to stop any and all fighting and if you do not we will blast each and every one of you from the face of the Earth and then take over your lands for the mutual benefit of all mankind. "

That'd be my benchmark. If they didn't get the message after that, F it. It hurts cause I have friends and fam from the region but the security of the world is at stake.

Any more aggression from any of these countries ever again will give the world powers the right to obliterate them.

Sure it's a little Klaatuish but it's gone on far enough. Diplomacy doesn't work. Condoleeza Rice ended up looking like a sap over there. They don't listen to women and they're danged sure not going to listen to a right-wing black woman who isn't married at that. They don't respect women in authority and they send Dr. Rice?

This is what happens when you entertain crazy people in your society. Bullies with agendas.

Like I said before, nobody is right, nobody is wrong, it's just a primate thing and it's time to stop monkeying around.

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Ganklin
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jasen, i saw one before. pretty crazy.

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Ganklin
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whoops, didnt see the third page here with charles' links!

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SquarejawHero
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Charles, Shahada is actually to "bear witness", "to testify" or recite your belief in Allah, not to practice Martyrdom. In order to be recognised an Muslim, and depending which sect you follow, you have to recite a verse in arabic to two other Muslims.

Sounds like some ill-in-the-head clerics up to their old tricks again...

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Jasen
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Offbeat, That image wasn't too far off.
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Michael W Howe
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This thread made me think of an strange idea. You know those 'Love is...' cartoons that have been made for years?

What if someone were to make a parody called 'War is...', with the first one being

'War is...never having to say I'm wrong.'
or
'War is...mistaking a children's school for an enemy hideout.'

Hmm, maybe that should be my side-project for the rest of the summer. I'm sorry if it sounds kind of shocking, but I'm a lefty, and not quite in my right mind at the moment. [Smile]

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-FP-
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Article of interest:

Hezbollah, with the discipline and ferocity of its fighters and ability to field advanced weaponry, has taken Israel by surprise.

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OFFBEAT
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Yikes! That guy looks more like Jack Elam..  -
(..who is my favorite EVERYTHING!)

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OFFBEAT
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Michael,

War is...
A way of getting what you want no matter how bad you suck at diplomacy.

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Charles
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Here's what US General William Tecumseh Sherman had to say about what war is, from a speech he made to a graduatiung class of cadets at a military academy in 1880.

"Boys, I’ve been where you are now and I know just how you feel. It’s entirely natural that there should beat in the breast of every one of you a hope and desire that some day you can use the skill you have acquired here.

Suppress it! You don’t know the horrible aspects of war. I’ve been through two wars and I know. I’ve seen cities and homes in ashes. I’ve seen thousands of men lying on the ground, their dead faces looking up at the skies.

I tell you, war is hell!"

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Charles
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I remember a routine that comedian Dennis Miller did not long ago where he compared the conflict in the Middle East to a fight over a matchbox in a football field. Here's a good example of the point he was making.

This graphic shows the geographic growth of Islam through the centuries. The area defined by the doted line represents the present day scope of Islamic lands.

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In this graphic, we see the scope of Islam at farthest penetration into Europe around 1500. This didn't happen by non-violent coersion. The expansion of Islam up to this point was primarily a series of military campaigns. Some try to represent this expansion as peaceful, but history clearly states otherwise. That includes the land that is present day Israel.

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In this last graphic we see the modern state of Israel. Indeed, like a matchbox in the middle of a football field. And for this, it's World War III.

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With all its faults and the objections that people have with Zionism as a political movement, Islamic fascism can't possibly be any better or an improvement.

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Everything about this conflict in Lebanon is wrong. It's a matter of who is more wrong than the other.

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SquarejawHero
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What's your point, Charles? You could show an article about Christian expansion and aggression across the world and find it's not all that different to Islam. Besides, not ALL Islamic states get on with eachother, nor do they agree on the legitimacy of Israel. It's not that simple.

In my view, you can't be more "wrong" than another, and you have to take into account the different sects within Islam AND the presence of other cultures, alongside the fact that there are many Islamic Arabs living within Israel as Israelis - quite peacefully. This has been stated by an Israeli internet contact of mine who was sick of people talking of "the Jews" solely as part of discussing Israel and wanted to point out her friends from local tribes who shared being part of the same state as her.

I'm sorry, maybe I'm taking what you're trying to show through your various posts the wrong way, but it's worth remembering that you're posting to a wide demographic of readers on this site and it's not good to generalise something like this so utterly. It does feel like you're painting Islam solely as a threat. I'd be the first to say Islamic radicalism is a major, major problem, but that's not the only face to Islam. Fascism in ANY culture is something that needs stamping down on.

I guess I'm saying... I'm not a particularly religious person, but I do try hard to understand and respect the beliefs of others even if I can't quite grasp them as utterly.

This conflict is bitter and twisted, and I'm certain there will be no winners. Whether it'll be WW3 is another question. Remember that even if the Iranian government panders towards their Arab neighbours, their majority Persian population is starting to react, no matter how quietly it might be now, to the recent administrations movements.

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Charles
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I think my point throughout this topic is very clear and I'll make it once more just to make sure there's no lingering ambiguities.

Everybody is wrong. In this conflict in Lebanon, everyone is wrong. It is as wrong to bomb innocent civilians in Lebanon as it is to bomb innocent civilians in Israel. You can be an apologist for Islam, Christianity, Zionism or whatever you want, but this is just plain wrong and nothing is going to get accomplished as long as hate is taught, murder is encouraged, rationality is thrown out the window and peace is not an option.

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SquarejawHero
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Thankyou for clarifying and I agree with you 100%. However, I think religion is less the problem and more the peoples involved; ingrained beliefs, heels dug in and widely-held animosity on all sides.

My own frustration with our leaders and the media is the clear-cut black and white way things are being put across. One Muslim MP here is saying that Blair's indecisiveness about condemning Israel could be viewed as "anti-Muslim". This not only showcases a lack of knowledge about the conflict, but also sets a dangerous precedent into pandering into the hands of people who this would prove advantageous.

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Greg B
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Right on Charles. I agree 100%.

Although I may praise him one day and bitch another, Walt Disney had the right solution:

Build places for people to play, to be together and share thrilling adventures of fantasy and wonder. I feel sorry for the millions of kids out there who've never shared this. Never experienced what it's like to have a time in your life, no matter how short or long where you do nothing but let your imagination soar, share stories and marvel at the wonders we can create.

I can't ever work for Disney. I'm like banned or cast out or whatever. Yet I can still admire what it means.

You can sit here and look at a map of the world and just wonder how many fantasy theme parks you could build. No 'Disney S. America' or 'Disney Africa' anywhere near the picture but some of the most valuable real estate is in these areas. Problem is so is poverty due to superstition, oppression, fear, ignorance etc.

Imagination is fine, having a religious belief is fine as long as those beliefs don't involve taking over the world, forcing others into your beliefs or doing more destruction than creating.

Islam works well because it uses force to convert. Same with Christianity. That's why the two will never survive with the other.

An ultimatum is coming and what's worse is what's happened in the news recently here in the U.S. regarding anti-semitism.

The scariest thing happened up north where a guy with a gun entered a Jewish Center in Seattle and killed a woman and wounded others. Real brave guy to open fire on unarmed women and children

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060729/ts_nm/crime_shooting_dc_9

Then actor/director Mel Gibson, someone we all admire I'd bet gets busted for alleged DUI and is reported to have been spouting anti-semitic slurs and threats to cops

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060730/people_nm/gibson_arrest_dc_2

I only posted his reported apology but you wonder what is on the minds of some of these people who run our world and are on top of the talent tree?

Was Gibson on a drunken rampage and was talking out of his ass?

The woman killed in Seattle, what terror must have swept through those folks there. There are lockdowns and security beefups at synagogues all over. If I was back home in NY we'd be sitting shotgun in front of the Temples there and I mean all day and night!

If terrorists go on a rampage to facilities here in the U.S. it'll be another 9/11 and a call for martial law.

Something's gotta give.

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Greg B
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Yep, just got word from back east. Folks standing guard and standing guard HEAVY. Jewish facilities being on watch 24/7 because of the Seattle incident.

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SquarejawHero
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Greg, I feel the need to point something out.

quote:

Islam works well because it uses force to convert. Same with Christianity. That's why the two will never survive with the other.

In the Quran it quite clear states that conversion to Islam cannot under any circumstance be forced. The idea you can FORCE someone to convert to an ideology is, to me, pretty odd. Belief isn't an on/off switch! [Smile]

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Greg B
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Squarejaw, in a perfect world Islam isn't supposed to use force. Same with christianity, same with any ideology.

But the world ain't perfect is it?

If we're to take the holy books literally we'd all be a bit oddly attired and probably no television, internet or newspapers and any plethora of changes.

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SquarejawHero
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Greg, the point is the Quran SAYS that you can't force a conversion. The basic foundation of that particular religion is that the convertee (?) has to subject himself/herself to God, so forcing a conversion is actually impossible. It's a basic fact of that particular religion - ingrained into its holiest text. If that's not adhered to, arguably those forcing conversions aren't Muslims themselves.

Religion isn't perfect, it's true. All the texts are full of inconsistencies and require interpretation in order to apply their teachings, and it's worth bearing in mind - well, mine at least - that they're a product of a particular time, a particular history. But there is good if you look, and I've met people who've gained from that. There are people that've gained from it on this very board! They're not wearing clothes from the middle ages, they're taking valid interpretations of teachings from the texts and applying it to their lives. This is how it should be.

I'd argue people aren't perfect. If it isn't religion, it's race. If it isn't race, it's expansion and land. If it's not one thing - it's another.

But don't get me wrong, I know the holy books are taken literally by some. This is a fact. It can lead to their tipping over into extremism, sure, but this is an minority reaction and not a majority one. The books also offer people some peace of mind, those who feel they need it, those who feel the need to believe in something beyond this life. Great for them! But to entirely blame this conflict solely on religion is taking a simplified view on what's going on, the state of civilisation in that region.

Trust me, I used to be really, REALLY sceptical about religion. I still am to an extent, but the thing is you have to accept there are people out there that believe differently to how you do. That's the only way peace can be attained with your own beliefs. There'll always be people out there wanting to force their ideologies, social or religious, onto others.

Like I said, people aren't perfect.

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Steve G
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quote:
Cry to those Using Babies as Sheilds
By

Naomi Ragen

My son is in the army. He is not the type at all, believe
me. Quiet, studious, a writer, a lover of Jewish history,
Talmud, ethics. He spent two years in a pre-army program in
the Galilee called Karmei Chayil. He made many good friends
there from all over the country, and now he and all his
friends are in the army. One of them I know well. A bit
chubby, with payot, and a great laugh. He and my son have
become like brothers. While both of them tried out for the
elite paratroopers unit, only he made it in. He and his
unit are the ones in Lebanon. They were there over a week,
fighting under horrific conditions, running out of food and
water. Even though the Israeli airforce dropped tons of
leaflets warning civilians to flee because they were in
terrorist territory and likely to be injured, they still
encountered civilians. My son spoke to his friend
yesterday,and this is how he described it:
"The village looked empty, and then we heard noises coming
from one of the houses, so we opened fire. But when we
went inside, we found two women and a child huddled in the
corner of the room. We were so relieved we hadn't hurt
them. We took up base in one of the empty houses. And then
all of a sudden, we came under intense fire. Three rockets
were fired at the house we were in. Only one managed to
destroy a wall, which fell on one of us, covering him in
white dust, but otherwise not hurting him. I spent the
whole time feeding bullets to my friend who was shooting
non-stop. We managed to killed 26 terrorists. Not one of
us was hurt. Our commanding officer kept walking around,
touching everybody on the shoulder, smiling and encouraging
us: "We're are better than they are. Don't worry." It
calmed us all down. And really, we were much better then
them. They are a lousy army. They only win when they hide
behind baby carriages."

Please remember this when you hear about the "atrocity" of
the Israeli bomb dropped on Kfar Cana, killing many
civilians, a place from which Hezbollah has fired hundreds
of rockets at Israel. Unlike previous administrations, Mr.
Olmert has my respect when he says: "They were warned to
leave. It is the responsibility of Hezbollah for firing
rockets amidst civilians."

Terrorists and their supporters have lost the right to
complain about civilian casualties, since all they have done
this entire war is target civilians. Every single one of the
more than 2,500 rockets launched into Israel, is launched
into populated towns filled with women and children. Just
today, another suicide belt meant to kill civilians in
Israel was detonated harmlessly by our forces in Nablus. So
don't cry to me about civilian casualties. Cry to those
using your babies and wives and mothers; cry to those who
store weapons in mosques, ambulances, hospitals, and private
homes. Cry to those launching deadly rockets from the
backyards of your kindergartens and schools. Cry to the
heartless men who love death, and however many of their
troops or civilians die, consider themselves victorious as
long as they can keep on firing rockets at our women and
children.

Save your sympathy for the mothers and sisters and
girlfriends of our young soldiers who would rather be
sitting in study halls learning Torah, but have no choice
but to risk their precious lives full of hope, goodness and
endless potential, to wipe out the cancerous terrorist cells
that threaten their people and all mankind. Make your
choice, and save your tears.

That terrorists have been unsuccessful in killing more of
our women and children is due to our army, God and prayers,
not to any lack of motivation or intention on their part.
If you hide behind your baby to shoot at my baby, you are
responsible for getting children killed. You and you alone.



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Greg B
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Egad!

What was Condoleeza Rice supposed to have achieved when she went over to Israel?

Worse off, now one of our top generals says civil war is in the future of Iraq.

That whole region is exploding and where's Underdog?

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akinney
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George Carlin: “why do “we” call Israeli soldiers commandos, and we call Palestinian soldiers terrorists?”

Some interesting stats that show how the Arabs got screwed in the 40's when the UN created Israel. Non-Arabs were 67% of the population and the world decided what to do with their land: The Jewish state was to receive 55% of Mandatory Palestine (33% of the population gets 55% of the land, WTF?), The Jewish state was also given sole access to the Red Sea and the Sea of Galilee (the largest source of fresh water in Palestine), Palestine's land surface was approximately 26,300 km², of which about one third was cultivable.

Of course the Jewish commitees approved it and the Arabs did not and the Arabs asked why a plan that was NOT supported by a majority of the population was beign implemented - it fell on deaf ears.

There is a lot to justify the Arab anger but nothing to justify or forgive their tactics. But regardless they are NOT just brown savages that "hate freedom" like the picture that too often painted. nobody talks about how they got screwed and maybe how to resolve that. Golda Meir even said in the 70's that Israel would never acknowledge an Arab state - that's fair. [grouse]

so the answer to it all: free for all, bomb the f*** out of each other!!! good idea.

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Greg B
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Akinney, fair's fair and you sure hit the nail on the head.

Here's the harsh reality as to why Europe and the U.S. OK'd the establishment of the State of Israel.

The NAZIs came to power with funding from major U.S. elite/bankers and British elite/Banikers. Even our own President's grandfather, Prescott Bush who ran Standard Oil was a mjor contributor. Matter of fact the Bush family was one of the only families during WWII to have their assets seized for collusion with the enemy. Fascism was a big thing back then especially during the 1930's. People had this bizarre idea that skin color defined superiority and didn't notice the scientific fact that rain falls on all regardless of race sex or political affiliation. If God and nature could give a **** what color you are then why?

So after Berlin fell, the Soviet's who liberated it got hold o f some NAZI officials and technicians and tons of paperwork. Lo and behold they found out it was the U.S. and Britain that had a major role in funding that jerk Hitler. Jews frome Europe were ferried about without a home. No one in Europe wanted them even though they were European. When WWII ended the fascists realized the game was up and had to make amends. Couldn't tell the American people that their own upper crust caused this global holocaust. Had to make concessions. So after already having carved up Arab land, the U.S. and Britain deided to back the establishment of the State of Israel. The fact that Jewish Americans had lead the atomic age might have been an incentive too.

Israel had the goods on the upper crust of the U.S. and Britain and other governments and has been playing that card ever since. What Israel knows is their best bargaining chip against a world of mass murderers. China knows. China has known from the Soviets who shared the info with their Communist brothers. Even though Mao killed more human beings than anyone in history with Stalin second and Hitler third.

So see, it's not about the nobility of aiding the Jewish people. It's about keeping skeletons in the closets and the Israelis and Jews know they can't trust anyone. History has shown this over and over again.

Bottom line is, if 'you' knew how much 'you've' been screwed 'you' and 'yours' would hit the roof and topple the status quo of this planet.

History has shown that fascism never works. It looks like it does for a short while but it always collapses. Nature don't like fascism for some reason yet it doesn't stop it from trying to take root.

Jewish prophecy is funny. It doesn't always end happy for the Jews and everyone else but people forget that.

Watch how Israel handles this war. They're going to either show everyone how it's done and be home in time for Hannukah or they're gonna be wrapped up in a U.S. style quagmire.

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Sketchpad
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Does all of this hell means that Carl Rove, Dick Cheney, and Donald Rumsfeld will be awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom next year?

What an opportunity. [biggrin]

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Greg B
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Sketchpad I don't see why not. Neither of those men nor the President has been 'convicted' of anything after 6 years of people accusing them and trying.

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