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Author Topic: War In The Middle East
Charles
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Caracal, I agree with you on McCain. I'd rather see him or a half dozen other strong, intelligent leaders in our country as president instead of George Bush. I refuse to accept that he's the best we can do. The day he packs his bags and vacates the White House can't come soon enough.

I'm not sure what you're getting at there Tobias. The US doesn't always support Israel. It doesn't support Israel when it's wrong and it's been wrong before. But since the day this tiny sliver of a country was formed, on its first day of existence, it was attacked by every nation in the region, trying to push them into the sea. Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq.

They declared their independence on May 14, 1948 and the very next day, May 15, they were attacked. They held out on their own then, they held out in 1956, in 1967 and they held out in 1973.

They made peace with Egypt, they made peace with Jordan, they gave up their occupation of Lebanon and Gaza. They tried to make peace with Palestine and were just about there but Arafat wouldn't sign on.

Israel has an absolute right to exist. They fundamentally deserve the moral and material support of America facing the overwhelming odds they've historically faced and survived, especially when it comes to military campaigns intended to destroy them.

The British Mandate of 1947 gave the Jews in the middle east a sliver of land along the coast that tied into existing Jewish settlements, plus the barren wasteland of the Negev to the south. The prime agricultural lands were given to the Arabs. Jerusalem was to be an international city. The Israelis didn't have this territory. Jerusalem was surrounded by what was partitioned as Arab land. Look at how big Gaza was.

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Approximately 13% of the British Mandate went to the Israeli nation. The rest went to Jordan and Palestine. Israel accepted this but 13% was still too much for their neighbors. They had to have it all.

When Israel occupied Jerusalem after the 1967 War, they let the mosque stand on the temple mount. The holiest place on Earth for Judaism, sharing it with Muslims. You think Hezbollah would do the same with Jews? I'd rather have Zionism than fascist Islam any day, thank you very much.

Incidentally, the bombing of the US Marines in Lebanon was Hezbollah's first terrorist attack. That's how they introduced themselves to the world. I think America should without any hesitation whatsoever be on Israel's side in this current conflict.

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Charles
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If you can't get to a coastline for the beach party, you can always go "Down By the Riverside".

We ain't gonna study war no more!

Hallelujah brothers and sisters!

Here's Sister Rosetta Tharpe singing of the glory and the joy of peace...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOmRm0-acJw&search=down%20by%20the%20river%20side

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Charles
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If you don't live by the coast or a river, you can get to the beach party of peace by riding an excellent form of public transportation called the "Peace Train".

Here's Yusuf Islam, a Muslim convert formerly known as the artist Cat Stevens.

He'll tell ya how to get there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7wEctHyuc0&search=Peace%20train%20cat%20

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Tobias A. Wolf
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quote:
I'm not sure what you're getting at there Tobias
I wasn't getting at anything other than a key component at the heart of the matter, and why this conflict even matters to the U.S. Charles. What do you think I believe in the Protocols of Zion or something?

Did I not state in my first post in this thread that I'm an ethnic Jew? You aren't even listening.

So to restate my position...

blah, blah, blah, Jew, wonk, a, wonk, a, wonk, a, Israel, gah, gah, gah, bomb, ba, ba, blat.

I hope that's more easily understood.

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Greg B
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Charles you hit a big nail on the head:

"The British Mandate".

Who the heck gave the British the authority over someone else's land?

That's why Iraq is in such a state. The British then and the U.S. carving up other people's property.

It's like that old saying about Columbus that he discovered America when there were already tens of millions of people living here. That's like me waltzing onto your front lawn and discovering it for myself and telling you to leave.

Israel got attacked at first because of it's association with the British and foreign powers.

Let's not mince words here. You only own what you control. Stealing land, using religion or politics or the ominous prophecies of Bazooka Joe it's still stealing land. Yet in nature one creature will fight and kill another for space.

That's all it is in a nutshell, one group of primates controlling or acquiring space and we dress it up in the morbid array of politics and religion.

Let's stop looking for justifications and arguments. Call it what it is, acquiring, defending, maintaining space.

End that right there. Nobody is right, nobody is wrong. It's natural.

Unfortunately we're supposed to be better than the average bear and even though DNA analysis shows we're so similar we're practically clones, we've allowed ourselves to differentiate into conflicting groups that had we been allies, there would be unending bounty for all.

We're either crazy, or we're animals that are delusional. Some say we are spirits in a material world. That's pretty and poetic but a hungry belly doesn't have time to debate.

Let's use the Mr. Peabody equation:

Go back in time with a cache of modern high tech weapons and give them to 12th Century people. What do you think would happen?

Now you understand.

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Ganklin
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hah nothing like being attacked, flammed, and insulted by a bunch of people who claim to love diplomacy.

3 years? that's all? if you ask me that's no where near enough time to effect any kind of sweeping social change in a land that is currupt to the bone. three years is a drop in the bucket.

yes. i do believe america backs israel because pretty much no one did in the 40s. i believe the holocost was a prime motivating factor in our part in the decision to place the jews in that land.

do we have interests in the middle east? damn staight we do. is the suez canal and oil fields in iraq a part of that equation? you bet. and why shouldn't we? we're doing buiseness there and people in that region COULD profit and live a good life with that type of buisness running through their society. heck, tourism would go up, land could be developed and people wouldn't have to worry about bombs flying through their living room window. but its not working like that. there are the few who profit and keep the rest of the masses down though fear and bastardized religious practices.

i DO believe that america's involvement in iraq has been a means of keeping iran at bay.

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eboles
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quote:
people in that region COULD profit and live a good life with that type of buisness running through their society. heck, tourism would go up, land could be developed and people wouldn't have to worry about bombs flying through their living room window.
agreed.

The potential for tourism in the Middle East is immense. It's the 'cradle of civilization'... what happened?

I just hope that, even if many lives are lost in the conflicts, that they don't destroy our heritage.

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Charles
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For everyone that would like to contribute to this important discussion, please try to keep your emotions in check and if you're going to contribute, then do it in a way where your position is clear and what you're saying makes sense. Nobody is attacking anyone personally here. I know I'm not and I'd appreciate it if you would all keep that in mind.

If you can't involve yourself in a somewhat professional manner then stay off the topic. You don't make it better by turning a casual remark into a personal thing and lashing out. Thanks.

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Charles
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I don't buy into the nobody's right and nobody's wrong line of thinking from Greg's comments above. But I do buy into nobody's right if everyone is wrong. That seems to be the case more often than not.

The British Mandate, the French Mandate that created modern Lebanon and Syria, this and that mandate, what does it matter when people aren't willing to sit down and try and work things out in a way that's equitable and fair for all parties involved.

I don't think it was wrong to create the state of Israel in 1947. I think the UN did the best they could to accomodate everyone who had a vested interest in the region. I think it was wrong to attack Israel on the first day of the country's modern existence. The present situation is the result of the failed policies of war and terror as a means to accomplish the political objective of the elimination of Israel and the nullification of that aspect of the British Mandate.

Nobody is right if everybody is wrong, and that includes Hezbollah, Hamas, Iran, Al Qaeda, etc.

Iran doesn't believe the Holocaust happened. How can solutions to the problem of Palestine and Israel be discussed when major players in the conflict are in this kind of denial. It can't and that's how we wind up with a continuous cycle of destruction, displacement and bloodshed.

Everyone is suffering. Everyone. Palestinians, Israelis, Lebanese, Arabs, Jews, Muslims, Christians, young people, old people, innocent people, the people of the region, the people of the world who are watching this go on every day. It's affecting us all.

This is a meager attempt on my part to bring a little soul comfort to anyone who might be up for following the link.

Mahalia Jackson sings "Nobody Knows the Trouble I've Seen".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6okSNGtjy3c&mode=related&search=mahalia%20jackson

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Ganklin
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charles, i admit i have never clicked your links posted in here out of sheer laziness, but i dig where your coming from my friend [Smile]

i wish people didnt get so crazy whenever someone points a finger in thier face. i totally admit i'm completely guilty of that. when that happens, it instantly becomes, "well, i'm right in what i did and its clearly you who are in the wrong." i don't know why its like that. maybe it has something to do with the fact that human beings are so intuned with their own mortality and we feel the need to justify our existence.

i might as well be honest. i don't want anything to do with what is goin on over in the middle east. i don't want to see our men and women involved. i'd rather them just blow each other up to smitherines and be done with it already.
however, i know that life doesn't work like that. i think that people all around the globe have more in common than they have differnces. i believe that people are linked in these commonalities.

people do things because they think its right. thats their motivation i suppose. did anyone watch this season's "24"? the character, charels logan, believed he was doing what was in the best interest of the country. you could also spin it to say that he was a vain character who wanted to be remembered for the great deeds he had done after he lived a long and fruitful life. i think somewhere in between is the answer.

whats the purpose of "24", you ask? well, i think art imitates life, and i was trying to tie it into the animation/entertainment theme of AN.

but even that being said, i think hezbollah/hamas is in the wrong. i think aggressive steps need to be taken to contain the situation. i think the US's involvment in iraq is an attempt to drive a wedge into what has been a festering issue for decades.

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Greg B
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Say, what construction company is gonna get the contracts for rebuilding Lebanon after all the bombing and shelling?

Anyone wanna hazard a guess?

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Sketchpad
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Yeah, it's great to see freedom and democracy continue to spread throughout the Middle East.
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Greg B
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Operant Conditioning and Classical Conditioning...


Unk Nala Den

Tand Popo Yel

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Charles
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In recent developments, Iran issued a statement claiming that Israel had pushed the button on their own destruction.

The footage of Hezbollah fighters that's being broadcast shows them marching with a goose step. I saw a couple of instances where they seem to be using a salute similar to the Nazis. An eerie throw back to another time. As if history wants to repeat itself.

There was an interesting report on CNN over the weekend. It was called "Inside Hezbollah" I think, and it showed some important footage of the people in the area and how much they supported the organization and the things that it did for them. They're a well trained militia and very determined.

Hezbollah is well organized and is comitted to their communities. They operate hospitals, help the people in any way they can. They even have their own construction company by the name of Jihad Construction, or something like that.

The most interesting footage was of this little girl who said she wanted to be a doctor to help the Hezbollah when she grew up. She said that she loved Hezbollah because "they kill Israel." She also said that "the land is ours and for nobody else," alluding to Israel.

That's the next war growing up. Teach your children well.

There's a solution to all this. Here's another kid from a different part of the world singing about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp28JS4aTrY&search=beatles%20all%20you%20need%20is%20love

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Sketchpad
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Charles, do you mean the Iranian government issued an 'official' statement? There are a lot of messed-up politicians over here in the U.S. that wants us to go to war with Iran, when actually all they really want to go to do is go to war with its government. Seems like these days people brush an entire society as bad when maybe it’s only a government or a small group of troublemakers that are making things miserable for everybody else. So we go in and bomb the dickens out of the population and that only drives them into joining these small terror groups, making them bigger and even more powerful.

For years now our current government in the U.S. has been bombing first without any information gathering, fact-finding, or evidence. (Or they have been doing people damage by presenting altered evidence.) No serious fact-finding, no inside information gathering, no questioning, and no real diplomacy -- and now look at where we are!

Anyway, check out this article on views inside Iran this week from Time Magazine:


The View From Inside Iran

Hizballah may be Tehran's client, but Iranians aren't buying the propaganda

By AZADEH MOAVENI

Posted Sunday, Jul. 23, 2006

Parvin Heydari, an Iranian mother of two, was flipping back and forth between the nightly news and Oprah when a bulletin on an Iranian state channel caught her attention. It urged Iranians to boycott what it called "Zionist products," including those made by Pepsi, Nestlé and Calvin Klein, and warned that profits from such products "are converted into bullets piercing the chests of Lebanese and Palestinian children." As evidence, the voice-over intoned, "Pepsi stands for 'pay each penny to save Israel.'" Heydari says she changed the channel, as she has no intention of crossing Nestlé's Nesquik off her shopping list. "Lebanon has nothing to do with us," she says. "We should mind our own business and concentrate on policies that are good for our economy, and our kids."

To many observers in the Western world, Hizballah, the Lebanese guerrilla group battling Israel, is a mere puppet of Iran. Some are convinced that Hizballah triggered the crisis on Tehran's orders to divert world attention away from Iran's controversial nuclear plans. But client states are not necessarily as docile as one might think. Just as Israel sometimes takes actions that surprise (and even displease) the U.S., Hizballah does things Iran has neither ordered up nor necessarily approves of.

It's impossible to know the precise origins of the current crisis in Lebanon, but since it erupted two weeks ago, the mood in Tehran has swung between indifference--the fighting rarely makes the headlines--and resentment over Iran's longstanding sponsorship of Hizballah. True, there have been officially sponsored rallies declaring support for Hizballah, whose leaders pledge religious allegiance to Iran's Supreme Leader, Ayatullah Ali Khamenei. But the emotional support for Hizballah common throughout the Arab world is largely absent here.

Iranians like Heydari believe that their country, ethnically and linguistically Persian, should stay out of the Arabs' fight with Israel and focus on improving living standards at home. "I don't think it's right to support them when our own people are hungry," says Mohammad Reza Afshari, 23, a mechanic who works two jobs yet still cannot afford to move out or attend college. The shop where he works abuts a vast mural depicting a female suicide bomber with a baby in her arms, accompanied by the words I LOVE MOTHERHOOD, BUT I LOVE MARTYRDOM MORE. Frustration with such propaganda underpins young people's reactions to the conflict. "Where are the Arabs?" asks Afshari angrily. "They're sitting around, while we're risking our position in the world."

It's not only ordinary Iranians who are worried about what the Middle East explosion means for Iran. Even as state infomercials order Iranians to boycott soft drinks, officials in Tehran--pragmatists and conservatives alike--concur that the conflict is bad news for the Iranian regime because it exacerbates the West's image of Tehran as a regional troublemaker. Rather than helpfully distracting attention from Iran, as many have charged, the conflict "undermines Iran's position," says a university professor close to senior Iranian officials.

The thorny nuclear negotiations with the West are likely to become even trickier. The delay in efforts to enforce a cease-fire in Lebanon is inflaming divisions within the Iranian regime on how to respond to the U.S.-backed package of incentives offered to Tehran in June. Before the crisis erupted, the momentum seemed to favor advocates of a pragmatic, positive response. But now the radicals are using the U.S.-backed Israeli campaign in Lebanon to push their case for a tough line. As an adviser to a senior conservative ayatullah puts it, "This has strengthened the hand of those who argue, 'If this happened to us, the only thing that would save us is a nuclear deterrent.'"

In the low-rent neighborhood of Tehran Pars, patrons at a café talk of how to balance faith with the politics of aiding Islamic militant groups. Mehdi Sedaghat, 27, a clothing-store clerk, speaks between bites of his bologna sandwich. "It's our religious duty to aid Muslims who are being killed," says Sedaghat, whose car bears a sticker on the rear window that reads INSURED BY IMAM REZA (Shi'ite Islam's revered figure). "But reality is reality, and we can't afford it." He quotes a Persian proverb: "If the lantern is needed at home, donating it to the mosque is haram [forbidden]."

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1218048-2,00.html

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Greg B
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We need a new tv show called:

Leave It To Primates

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Charles
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Sketchpad, earlier this year in February on C-SPAN, they broadcast the entire speech of the President of Iran on Revolution Day in Tehran. It consisted almost entirely of denials of pursuing nuclear weapons, denials of the Holocaust, lots of antagonistic remarks towards Israel, the US, the world in general. At least that's what was coming through the translator, so a comment along the lines of Israel's destruction during this current conflict would be par for the course for this guy.

What's been reported more recently is that the antagonistic rhetoric from Iran seems to be dying down a little. That's what they say. Speculation being that perhaps they're seeing that there's a limit to how much some countries will take before they hit back and hit back hard.

Silence is golden, but our eyes still see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f48niuJqurk&search=silence%20is%20golden

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Sketchpad
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The Iranian populace is probably influencing what's happening over there right now and quieting things down.

I've been following everything the Iranian politician and radical leader has been saying, and he should be watched closely.

But it seems to me we want to watch the Iranian people closely too. That leader, the government, the radicals, or any terrorist group cannot grow or lead anyone if the Iranian populace remains only interested in keeping their families and houses in order.

Keeping the populace well-informed will keep them in the light of things, so that any radical groups or bad governments can’t blind them with harmful idealism and false information.

It just seems to me things always turn bad when the interaction and communication between societies is cut off. Then honest people under radicals or bad government are easily fooled and don’t seem to know the difference between lies and truth or friends from enemies -- then unrestrained violence ends up becoming the solution to all the problems in the world!

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Charles
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Sketchpad, while watching the broadcast of the Iranian president's speech, I couldn't help but notice the shots of people and families walking around, enjoying their national holiday. Just like people everywhere, no difference really. Wanting to live in peace, enjoying the day and enjoying life.

And above all this, the hostile, antagonistic political rhetoric intended to stir up anger and hate.

Noboy's right when everybody's wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJV44YV69z0&search=buffalo%20springfield

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Greg B
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My philosphy: Step on my toe on purpose and I'll break your legs as a reminder.

Best deterrent there is next to total obliteration.

I'll betcha it'll be a long time befoe Hezbollah or any other people with a gripe picks a fight with Israel.

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Charles
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Here's a blog I discovered earlier. It's maintained by someone inside Lebanon in Beirut. Very informative. The people there are really suffering. Their great city and beautiful country being ripped apart. War is not a good thing.

http://beirutlive.blogspot.com/

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Sketchpad
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Er...hate to tell you this guys but looking at today and tomorrow's jihad retaliatory roads, What deterrents are there for suicide bombs? Especially since nuclear technology is now easily getting around?

Yes Charles, War is not a good thing. It could get around, you know? Easy to start but can be very hard to stop.

Yep, it's the 'Leave it to Primates' TV show.

Good night...and good luck.

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Greg B
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I just heard something I hadn't heard in decades.

Us old timers remember a woman named Golda Meir. She was once Prime Minister of Israel ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golda_Meir ). Truly a remarkable biography.

I was listening to the Bill Handel show here in LA at KFI 640 on the am dial. He reminded us of a quote from Golda Meir which I'm paraphrasing here in case I missquote a word or two but it essentially says:

" We will never have peace with the Arabs until they love their children more than they hate us. "

That says alot right there.

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eboles
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quote:
My philosphy: Step on my toe on purpose and I'll break your legs as a reminder.

Best deterrent there is next to total obliteration.

It is precisely this kind of lunatic belief (more than any religious conviction) that causes these unfortunate situations.

After you break someone's legs, their cousins come after you with baseball bats.

As for your bet, Al Qaeda has just announced their intention to avenge Israel for their actions in Lebanon and elsewhere. The significance of this is that Hezobollah are Shia and Al Qaeda are Sunni; to them the Shia are infidels.

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akinney
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quote:
My philosphy: Step on my toe on purpose and I'll break your legs as a reminder.

Best deterrent there is next to total obliteration.

Only problem is we're not talking about broken legs here and or striking out at ONLY the aggressors: we're talking about ripping innocent people to shreds, including children.

I find it interesting that nobody is talking about how Lebanon has a huge Christian population - they just keep acting like they are all "Muslim Terrorists." My landlord is Lebanese and has family there still and says that and overwhelming majority are Christian. Nobody knows the real % because no census taken since the 30's but I believe someone who lived there most of her life and still has family there.

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Greg B
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Quote Eboles:

"As for your bet, Al Qaeda has just announced their intention to avenge Israel for their actions in Lebanon and elsewhere."

Okay. [Roll Eyes]

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Greg B
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quote Akinney:

"I find it interesting that nobody is talking about how Lebanon has a huge Christian population "

Right the heck on there. That I can salute you for. I don't know if it's a majority but it wouldn't surprise me. I've got family on all sides and yes it sucks to see this happen but it was inevitable given the mindsets over there.

It's really a tragedy for all sides and I'm sorry I can't contribute more but I was resourced out after Katrina and other disasters last year. Now we have a manmade disaster and it bites.

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eboles
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Al Qaeda 'to avenge Israeli deeds'

Greg I know it comes as no great news that Al Qaeda isn't a big fan of Israel, but these are the first statements they have made regarding the war in Lebanon. Until these statements came out there had been a lot of talk about animosity and the growing divide between Sunni and Shiite jihadists.

But I guess these events have made them put aside their differences.

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Greg B
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Eboles, it's a lot of hot air.

Al Queda is lucky they have people who can listen to them. If things really got out of line we'd be 1 billion people less overnight.

Russia and China can bitch and moan all they want but if we got pushed far enough there'd be one less religion on the planet.

Don't count the U.S. out one iota. We have weapons that would scare Mr. Spock.

Sunnis and Shiites have been at each other's throats since after Muhammed ascended. It's a family/sibling rivalry thing and you would think after over a thousand freakin' years they would have settled things by now. It just goes to show you how foolish and unreasonable both sides are.

Believe you me I could divorce it all, walk away and say F-it. Let em' kill each other and let nature sort it out. Yet I can't cause when you see the children caught up in this nonsense ya gotta pray and hope for the best.

As long as people let the hatreds and ignorances and fears of the past rule their present and future they'll remain in a hellish existence mired with violence and destruction.

Mind control, behavioral conditioning by psychotics causes these tragedies on all sides. Those are the persons, the real villains in our societies, the ones who use force to make others believe their psychoses.

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Charles
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Al Qaeda's big announcement, so what's new? Okay, now the whole world is a battleground. It wasn't before Israel counter attacked. Only right now. They really mean it and they're not foolin. They're going to attack everybody everywhere. They weren't trying to do that before. Only right now at this very moment.

I found an interesting picture of Hezbollah and the holy men. You think they'd be able to come up with a salute that's a little more original. Someone forgot to tell em it was used a few decades before. There may be some trademark issues involved.

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SquarejawHero
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Greg, let's not completely generalise here. Not all Muslims are at eachothers throats, and all my Muslim friends I've met through my Muslim girlfriend are very balanced about both the current crisis and their shock at what people carry out in the "name" of their religion. You're really treading being out of line in the terms of service in some of what you're saying, although I do nod my head with that last final comment.

But, even in context, I hardly think any view about wiping out one religion, one that also had people who practice it lay some of the foundations for US industry, is something worth spraying onto this board. Just try to apply some of your better points without invalidating it with what can be looked at as hate-speak. Truth is, the people on the extremes are so firmly entrenched on either side in the ME those who just want to get on living are being punished. It's not about religion or race. If it was, then Lebanese Americans wouldn't have their passage out bombed to **** by the Israelis. It if was, then Hezbollah wouldn't be missiling Israeli Arabs in Haifa. If it was, then the "Crusaders" (as put forward by militant Hezbollah) wouldn't be targeting areas full of Lebanese Christians.

As far as I see it,
it's mainly about territory, not matter what ******** people spout about religion. Who owns what. Relgion is just an excuse, a marketing term for each side. True, there are many shades of grey... I don't want to take a line because I don't believe any side is "doing the right thing", even my own UK government. I don't have the answers either, but all I can see is a whole lot of platitudes and nothing much else going on whilst people die daily.

Lives don't seem to matter when there's "wider issues" at stake.

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eboles
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I'm not saying anything major will come from Al Qaeda's announcement. After all when it comes down to it they are quite loosely organised(of necessity). My point is that this is a multi-faceted situation, and Israel can expect unwelcome repercussions from militant islamists.

Of course from a certain point of view, these wouldn't be seen as repercussions, but as "their plan all along". Either way this is not the way forward. It won't solve anything. This should be obvious.

Even former hostage Terry Waite says this will only strengthen the extremists' position. Hezbollah had him in solitary confinement in a cell in Beirut for 5 years.

Former hostage Waite accuses Israel of 'fuelling extremism'

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Jasen
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That picture up there is disturbing. Here's another ...  -

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akinney
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Again - with the cartoon, Lebanon civilians are getting bombed and they lumped into the Palestinians even though a large number of Lebanese are Christian - quick, someone make another cartoon that shows the other side of what Israel does - a bulldozer running over a baby carriage or maybe a jet fighter dropping a bomb on baby carriage.

c'mon, this isn't a simple as good vs. evil and israel isn't some white knight. state funded terror under an organized army is still terror - somehow israel always gets absolved of killing. it's like if you're brown and/or muslim and you suicide bomb 20 Israeli civilians you are a cowardly terrorist and if you wear a uniform and blow away 20 Palestinian (or Lebanese) civilians you are a here - or at least it's whitewashed as unfortunate collateral damage that you had no choice in. I'm not saying that Hezbolan or Palestinian groups are innocent but boths sides are guilty of a lot or horrific things and Israel is always defended as the innocent country being picked. No one forced them to evict Palestinians from their land in the forties to make way for the Jewish state in the 1940's - why would they expect that the people living there would just be okay with that? I mean, we took lands from the Indians and most people acknowledge that it was wrong, but not in the middle east. I don't support the murderous activity of either side - I guess in the eyes of Israel 2 kidnapped soldiers is worth thousands of Lebanese civilians. Maybe when your religious doctrine says you are God's chosen people it is your luxury to see nothing wrong with tipping the scales of justice like that.

I am not anti jewish, christian or muslim - just tired of each religion's fanatics claiming to be god's favorite little innocent children while they maim and kill innocent people in the name of said god. they are all full of it: christians listen NOTHING Jesus said but talk about him all the time, the Jews follow the Old Testement which if you read - is batsh**t crazy and I don't know what the Koran says except to kill cartoonists (kidding, i don't know a whole lot about Islam and am not going to pretend to). Probably a reason I haven't been religous in my life: too much hypocrisy.

I don't intend to insult anyone's religion: there are more level headed believer but the extremists seem to have all of the guns and ruin it for the rest.


http://www.worldrevolution.org/Article/679
http://www.vtjp.org/report/The_Israeli_Poison_Gas_Attacks_Project.htm
http://www.sfbayview.com/100202/childrendefy100202.shtml
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2003/07/08/16258521.php

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LeftyMcKay
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Some more perspective...

Brought Up to Hate

Inciting Children

UN Ambulances Assisting Terrorists

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SquarejawHero
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The way I see it, and I've argued this with my girlfriend, is that Islam is often taught without any access to direct translation to the Quran. I feel this is a mistake and taking a comment near the end of the text out of context. 85% of the worlds Muslims do no speak arabic, yet learn the Quran in arabic through repetition and are taught the meaning of the text by clerics.

Irshad Manji tackles this issue of the "arabisation" or Islam... however racist it might initially seem... quite successfully. I personally believe in some of the foundations of Islam, that God is an entity, and also see the text in its historic sense. I believe this is how Islam should be taught... but when people are bringing in conflict that actually goes against a lot of what is said in the Quran, they're actually going against the teachings they're supposed to be following... depending, of course, which teaching you're following... for example -

quote:
Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve
quote:
O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends/protecters; they are friends/protecters of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend/protecter, then surely he is one of them; surely God does not guide the unjust people.
Mohammed was one confusing fellow. Here's the Wiki on it if you're interested.

The Quran itself isn't perfect. If it is truly the "word of God", it's written for the time it was created. If you read it and try to apply it literally, without remembering Mohammeds position at the time, then you're going to run into some MASSIVE contradictions. Irshad struggles with these in her book, as a feminist lesbian writer, trying to make sense of the religion she was brought up to believe and seeing if someone so liberal can truly call themselves Muslim when so many within that community are against her.

I'm an agnostic, personally. I side with some of the basics of Islam because it makes sense to me, as it - on its most basic level - teaches that God is an entity. However I'm not blind to what I see as faults in its teachings, an over-ambiguity which can often be taken several ways or completely contradictory passages within the space of often the same page. People within Islam believe this is the challenge of it... during the "Golden Age" the first Caliphates were very liberal, with clerics from all three religions, "People Of The Book", studying all three texts for meaning.

Oddly enough, the extreme side of Islam started in Europe, in Spain, and moved on from there. This is where the initial problems started... problems that we've yet to overcome. Sadly.

BTW on that UN ambulance video... is it 100% confirmed that those were UN workers and not hijacked ambulances?

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Greg B
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Okay here's how we end these religious wars.

If the person who establishes the religion dies, we don't have to follow it. They can't fake it either by reincarnating or being in another dimension where only a few people can officially say they're in communication.

Next guy making with the 'word from God' thing can't flake out, disappear, leave messages in an ancient language. He or she has to stay here and take it like everyone else.

Does that sound fair? I figure if you're gonna listen to some guy saying he's speaking for God, HE'D BETTER PROVE IT.

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Charles
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The solution won't come in this generation and probably through the next. The kids are being taught that the highest spiritual aspiration in their religion is to die as a suicide bomber.

Palestinians in Gaza for example aren't allowed to develop friendships with Israelis. If you become a friend to an Israeli you're killed.

When Israel gives up land for peace, long range weapons move in up to the border. Genuine peace is not an option since the only solution that radical Islam accepts is the ultimate destruction of Israel.

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Jasen
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Has anyone seen those cartoons that Iran is producing about glorifying suicide bombing. Maybe it could be found on YouTube somewhere. It's basically made for the young kids and it's in a G.I. Joe Style.

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Charles
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