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Author Topic: War In The Middle East
Greg B
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The situation in the middle east has escalated to far more than just a series of volleys of weapons. The Israeli city of Haifa was hit and there's no turning back. Personally, this latest attack on Israel is not only terrifying but traumatizing. Same for Lebanon as I have family and friends there too.

This is the largest attack against Israel ever and they're not backing down.

This is a war of magnitude that will definitely change our lives.

Israel is against 3 countries and today our President agreed that Iran was also a part of the hostilities. That means Iran's chances of being hit hard are very high.

Some of us believe such aggressions signal some prophetic end of the world. Others see it as an inevitable conflict amongst unreasonable cultures. There're also those who see it as the madness of opportunists. Either way it's happening and it'll tae an act of God to end it all.

Charles, I know you've some thoughts on the issue and I'll shut up and let you speak your piece on the continuing events unless someone associated is injured or killed.

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Ganklin
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i'm hoping cooler heads will eventually win the day, but its just not in the cards right now. there's too much historical animosity between these people, and its been simmering for the past 50 years. plus, there's alot of fingers in this pie so who knows what will come of this.

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bronnie
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http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?slug=postma n16m&date=20060716

Sunday, July 16, 2006

Let's face it, it's WWIII, Gingrich says


By David Postman


Seattle Times chief political reporter


Former U.S. House Speaker Newt Gingrich says America is in World War III and President Bush should say so.


Gingrich said in an interview Saturday that Bush should call a joint session of Congress the first week of September and talk about global military conflicts in much starker terms than have been heard from the president.


"We need to have the militancy that says 'We're not going to lose a city, " Gingrich said.


Gingrich said in the coming days he plans to speak out publicly and to the administration from his seat on the Defense Policy Board about the need to recognize that America is in World War III.


He lists wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, last week's bomb attacks in India, North Korean nuclear threats, terrorist arrests and investigations in Florida, Canada and Britain, and violence in Israel and Lebanon as evidence of World War III.


He said Bush needs to deliver a speech to Congress and "connect all the dots" for Americans.


He said European leaders and some in the Bush administration who are urging a restrained response from Israel are falling short of what needs to be done "because they haven't crossed the bridge of realizing this is a war."


Once that's accepted, he said, "Israel wouldn't leave southern Lebanon as long as there was a single missile there. I would go in and clean them all out, and I would announce that any Iranian airplane trying to bring missiles to resupply them would be shot down. This idea that we have this one-sided war where the other team gets to plan how to kill us and we get to talk, is nuts."


Gingrich was in the area for fundraisers for Congressman Dave Reichert, R-Auburn, 2nd District GOP challenger Doug Roulstone, and the state Republican party.


There is a political element to his talk of World War III. Gingrich said that public opinion can change "the minute you use the language" of World War III. The message then, he said, is, "OK, if we're in the third world war, which side do you think should win?"


Gingrich said he is "very worried" about Republicans facing fall elections and says the party must have the "nerve" to nationalize the elections and make the 2006 campaigns about a liberal Democratic agenda rather than about President Bush's record.


Republicans are now "sailing into the wind" in congressional campaigns. He said, in part, that's because of the Iraq war, adding, "Iraq is hard and painful, and we do not explain it very well." But some of it is due to Republicans' congressional agenda. He said House and Senate Republicans "forgot the core principle" of the party and embraced congressional pork. "Some of the guys," he said, have come down with a case of "incumbentitis."


Democrats have been trying to nationalize the midterm elections and make each race about Bush's record and the Iraq war.


Republicans instead have been trying to localize each race, as in Reichert's challenge from political newcomer Darcy Burner, and make the race about the qualifications and personalities of the candidates, not about a national agenda.


Gingrich says that's a mistake. Republicans, he says, should nationalize the contest, too.


He said that as Democrats make the elections about George Bush, Republicans should make it about House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-San Francisco. He said voters need to be told "how weirdly San Francisco these guys are voting," and Democrats will "collapse in defeat."


"There's going to be a national conversation in October," Gingrich said of the final sprint to the November election. "The only question is whether it's the Republicans defining it or whether we have some nutty idea that we can run local races, and so the entire definition is on the left."


"This is classic — that Gingrich's solution to Bush's failed leadership is a different 'marketing strategy,' " state Democratic Party spokesman Kelly Steele said by e-mail.


"Democrats believe we need a 'tough and smart' strategy that makes 2006 a year of transition in Iraq and aggressively takes the fight to the terrorists, while Gingrich and Bush seek to elect a new crop of loyal rubberstamps — McGavick, Reichert, and Roulstone included — to blindly support and extend their monopoly on their 'tough and dumb' conduct of the war in Iraq and the larger battle against global terrorism."


This material has been edited for print publication.


David Postman is The Seattle Times' chief political reporter. Reach him at at dpostman@seattletimes.com

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Ganklin
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i saw this on CNN about a WW3...i think that's a pre-mature statement. nothing along those lines have even happened yet. however, if the situation isn't approached with a careful hand, it could easily spiral out of control.

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OFFBEAT
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It's WW3 allright.. been saying it for months. I'm betting that a nuke will be dropped or set off somewhere within the next couple of months.

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OFFBEAT
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I meant.. WW3 looks inevitable. I can't imagine how we're gonna avoid it.

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-FP-
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MSNBC has been not-so-subtly building the case all day for a US invasion of Iran. That's what this is all about, at least a big chunk of it.

Hey, the president said "poop" on live TV today:
The doody president

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Greg B
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I have to chime in here. I was trying to wait for Charles' viewpoint but this is getting scary.

Two points:

The Biblical prophecies of the Apocalypse were given so that we would AVOID it. Yet we've done everything we can to head straight for it. We even make movies, comic books and form bands around it. It's like our annihilation is genetically predisposed.

Second:

Here we are, debating in our own Senate about the fate of the greatest medical leap in human history namely the stem cell technology debate. The medical achievements are nothing short of miraculous. We could turn the Earth into a medically sound world like Dr. William Foege has been fighting to do for decades but nOoOOOOoooo, we'd rather blow each other up.

That's it. Nuff said.

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There's no interest in stem cells when the dollar is in danger. Iran's oil bourse threatens it. There have been many posts with comprehensive citations about this made right here at AN. To repeat old stuff:

The Proposed Iranian Oil Bourse

Excerpt:
At any rate, no matter what the British decide, should the Iranian Oil Bourse accelerate, the interests that matter—those of Europeans, Chinese, Japanese, Russians, and Arabs—will eagerly adopt the Euro, thus sealing the fate of the dollar. Americans cannot allow this to happen, and if necessary, will use a vast array of strategies to halt or hobble the operation’s exchange:

· Sabotaging the Exchange—this could be a computer virus, network, communications, or server attack, various server security breaches, or a 9-11-type attack on main and backup facilities.

· Coup d’état—this is by far the best long-term strategy available to the Americans.

· Negotiating Acceptable Terms & Limitations—this is another excellent solution to the Americans. Of course, a government coup is clearly the preferred strategy, for it will ensure that the exchange does not operate at all and does not threaten American interests. However, if an attempted sabotage or coup d’etat fails, then negotiation is clearly the second-best available option.

· Joint U.N. War Resolution—this will be, no doubt, hard to secure given the interests of all other member-states of the Security Council. Feverish rhetoric about Iranians developing nuclear weapons undoubtedly serves to prepare this course of action.

· Unilateral Nuclear Strike—this is a terrible strategic choice for all the reasons associated with the next strategy, the Unilateral Total War. The Americans will likely use Israel to do their dirty nuclear job.


· Unilateral Total War—this is obviously the worst strategic choice....

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Tobias A. Wolf
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Somehow, I can't help but think this "Iran Strike" build-up is a part of the Republican strategy to hold onto both houses for 2006 (not that the Democrats don't have an equally unsavory strategy, mind you).

I remember in the spring of '02 there were a few press reports that the Pentagon had plans to invade Iraq. Of course, it was all denied at the time.

Then as the summer crept on that year the press noise about invasion kept getting louder, and louder. I remember it so well because I edited some video footage that I shot that summer awhile ago, and in the background of one of the shots CNN was on. They were interviewing Scott Ritter, a former weapons inspector in Iraq, and he was basically saying, emphatically, that there wasn't any WMD in the country. He's was being interviewed by Aaron Brown, and Brown wasn't buying it through his line of questioning and demeanor. It was Sept. 3rd '02.

Latter that fall, I remember Ritter going on Brown's program again to talk about the Iraqi arsenal. But most of the questions concerned allegations of Ritter soliciting sex with a minor on the net. Although Ritter had never been brought up on charges of such an affair. Of course that year, congress gave the President the authority to Invade Iraq just before the mid-term election.

Now, do I think that a similar vote is going to be taken this fall in reference to Iran or some other military based action? Yes, I do. For exactly the same political reasons. With military action to follow at the President's discretion.

That I have little doubt of, but the question is, who's going to be the new Scott Ritter?

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Charles
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There hasn't been a mention so far regarding this current conflict of the UN resolution adopted in 2000. When the Israeli's withdrew from Southern Lebanon, Hezbollah was to be disarmed and the Lebanese army was to reoccupy that part of the country. It didn't happen, wasn't enforced, Hezbollah (which means the party of God by the way) shelled northern Israel on a regular basis.

They crossed into Israeli territory, killed eight soldiers, captured two which is tantamount to an act of war, even videotaped the excursion, then boom boom boom here come the Israelis so what's the big surprise.

I geuss the thinking was that Israel would agree to a prisoner swap. Two soldiers for a few hundred detainees.

This isn't going to go away. We're going to be dealing with it in this generation, and the next, and the next. The Jews aren't going to sit by and allow a second holocaust to happen and too many in the area and throughout the middle east are never going to settle for anything else but the complete elimination of the Jewish state. Iran doesn't believe that the Holocaust happened and a great many Palestinians don't believe that the Jews were ever historically in the land in the first place. How can you reason with irrationality?

Agreements aren't being honored. Compromise isn't an option. Peace isn't being taught. The children are being conditioned for future wars. Until that changes, we can pretty much expect more of the same with perhaps some interludes.

As before on the other thread, LL Cool J sums it up best...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=WoGrGKke3GI&search=mama%20said%20knock%20you%20out

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Charles
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Don't want to end up like Bonnie and Clyde...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2u_613xl11w&mode=related&search=the%20israelite

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Greg B
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Well yesterday the gangsters hit Nazareth with missiles. Killed some kids.

Charles, the Palestinians never hated Jews. They hated the way the new state of israel came into being. I remember far back enough that the name Palestinian 'meant' Jew.

There were Jews living in Palestine since the time of the Christ, long past the Romans, Muslims, Crusades. Then a bunch of Europeans backed by Britain and the U.S. engaged in terrorist acts to establish the State of Israel.

See where the confusion ends and begins?

It's a dangerous dance being done over there and it can only escalate into something horrible on a global scale unless something happens.

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Charles
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Greg, if that's the case that Palestinians never hated the Jews, then the perception is obviously the fault of the rest of the world. Of course they never hated the Jews. They're just been loving them to death.

The roots of the modern terrorist movement in the Arab/Islamic world are with the Palestinians and they did it for love of the Jews.

Gotta laugh about it sometimes when it all gets too sad. Life will go on.

Hey! I got it! The solution to all the problems between the Palestinians and the Jews! Let's have a beach party!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6RuURE9Y44&mode=related&search=hava%20nagila

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blackmocco
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Hey Greg. Are these the 'gangsters who killed some kids' you were talking about...?

http://www.abouyounes.com/presentation.asp?enter=true

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Charles
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See, there's an important difference between the missiles that Israel shoots and the 10,000 rockets that Hezbollah was allowed to accumulate through their we love the Jews sources. That number is from today's LA Times by the way.

The ones that Hezbollah shoots at Israeli towns from Lebanon after the Israelis leave occupied land never, never ever kill innocent people when they land. They never ever place their artillery in areas where families live and children play.

There's room at the beach party for everyone!

Let's dance!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ob_LndTvidg&search=edwin%20star

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Tobias A. Wolf
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As an ethnic, but non observant Jew, I despise the fact that having a rational un-heated discussion about the state of Israel is nearly next to impossible in the U.S by and large. Israel is a state just like any other in the end. And criticisms of it's policies and history should be open for debate without the conversation degrading into anti-semitisim accusations. Not that this discussion is there, but somehow, it always ends up there. So just that I don't have to do this later, I'd like to insert a premptive eyeroll:

[Roll Eyes]

O.K. so now that that's taken care of, I don't think the U.S. is any more sympathetic to the plight of the Jewish people than any other ethnic group. But, they are the local oil flow cop to the U.S. pure and simple. That's why they receive more money than any other state in the world in terms of U.S. aid. And has that policy worked out for this country? By and large, I'd say, yes it has. Until last week.

See, with 18 permanent bases being built in Iraq, um, yeah, maybe Israel might not be needed so much anymore. And I don't think that fact is being lost on the Arab nations hell bent on it's destruction. They think the bodyguard that has beat them up for so many years is going to get fired. And it's exactly why, IMO, Israel has taken their actions to such extremes. Of all times to prove something, this is the time and they have decided to take it. And not unwisely if you ask me. Because U.S. financial backing probably is, in all likelihood, at the precipice of a steep wane.

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blackmocco
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Absolutely true. I didn't post the link because I'm for or against either side. The whole thing's a mess, either way. I just tire of the attitudes here in the States that say Israel is perfectly justified in annihilating practically nothing else but innocent civilians and everyone else is not. Like two Israeli soldiers are worth more than the hundreds, probably thousands by the time someone comes to their senses, of Lebanese civilians who have no part to play in this. No-one is justified to use this kind of force without having to answer to the rest of the world. Not Israel, not Palestine, not Hizbollah, not anyone. Greg's comments irritated me, as if he thinks Israel are not acting like 'gangsters' also in this fiasco. Disgusting. And from someone who claims to work in the field of journalism.
Please, Charles. Link us to yet another hilarious youtube link...

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"...and it was here, in this blighted place, he learned to live again..."

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Charles
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I tell ya, those Israeli soldiers that got themselves kidnapped. They're the ones to blame for this.

Here's another gut busting video sure to hit yer funny bone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xjw-l673UI&mode=related&search=john%20lennon%20imagine

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Ganklin
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yeah, thats the real reason we're in iraq. isreal just wasn't cutting the mustard as our middleman to all that black stuff anymore. sheesh.

i finally was able to watch munich tonight. it was a good flick and put some stuff in perspective.

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blackmocco
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Nice one, Charles. Because that's exactly what I said in my post. Cancel my subscription. Moron.

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"...and it was here, in this blighted place, he learned to live again..."

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Charles
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Jeez. Don't you think that's something of an overreaction? Behaving just like an Israeli. Check yourself out.

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OFFBEAT
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As I understand it.. Isreal's actions are reactionary.

It seems that whenever they finally get sick of being poked with a stick, and strike back.. everyone forgets everything done onto them prior.

I do not understand the mentality over there.
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(unrelated image of cavemen)

The more I read about history, the more I learn that peace is just a hippie pipe dream. The longest period of peace in known history has been 78 years. [Razz]

Every Jock that "pants" you in gym class.. every bully that took your lunch money... there's a place for them.. it's called a battlefield. I say go kill yourselves.. knock yourselves out.. Have at it.. Go kill whoever.. for whatever reason!! That'll show em!! ...just leave me alone.

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Charles
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I apologize to Greg for the tone with which I used in replying to a comment of his earlier. I just didn't agree. Sorry about the style of delivery. The conflict is a bummer no matter how you look at it.

I happen to believe in the power of peace through YouTube music videos and beach parties and if that doesn't work, then there truly is no hope for human kind.

One minute on the Love Train is better than no Love Train at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ig3K3rVoCc&mode=related&search=love%20train%20o%27jays

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akinney
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Both sides think they exclusively right and the other is exclusively evil - seems to be a sweet little trend now-a-days. I think the great Mark Twain sums up our world chest beating sh** and war cry fever of the last few years (from MANY countries and MANY religions):

"The War Prayer" by Mark Twain

by Mark Twain

It was a time of great exulting and excitement. The country was up in arms, the war was on, in every breast burned the holy fire of patriotism; the drums were beating, the bands playing, the toy pistols popping, the bunched firecrackers hissing and sputtering; on every hand and far down the receding and fading spread of roofs and balconies a fluttering wilderness of flags flashed in the sun; daily the young volunteers marched down the wide avenue gay and fine in their new uniforms, the proud fathers and mothers and sisters and sweethearts cheering them with voices choked with happy emotion as they swung by; nightly the packed mass meetings listened, panting, to patriot oratory which stirred the deepest depths of their hearts, and which they interrupted at briefest intervals with cyclones of applause, the tears running down their cheeks the while; in the churches the pastors preached devotion to flag and country, and invoked the God of Battles, beseeching His aid in our good cause in outpourings of fervid eloquence which moved every listener. It was indeed a glad and gracious time, and the half dozen rash spirits that ventured to disapprove of the war and cast doubt upon its righteousness straight way got such a stern and angry warning that for their personal safety's sake they quickly shrank out of sight and offended no more in that way.

Sunday morning came – next day the battalions would leave for the front; the church was filled; the volunteers were there, their young faces alight with martial dreams – visions of the stern advance, the gathering momentum, the rushing charge, the flashing sabers, the flight of the foe, the tumult, the enveloping smoke, the fierce pursuit, the surrender! – then home from the war, bronzed heroes, welcomed, adored, submerged in golden seas of glory! With the volunteers sat their dear ones, proud, happy, and envied by the neighbors and friends who had no sons and brothers to send forth to the field of honor, there to win for the flag, or failing, die the noblest of noble deaths. The service proceeded; a war chapter from the Old Testament was read; the first prayer was said; it was followed by an organ burst that shook the building, and with one impulse the house rose, with glowing eyes and beating hearts, and poured out that tremendous invocation:

"God the all-terrible! Thou who ordainest, Thunder thy clarion and lightning thy sword!"

Then came the "long" prayer. None could remember the like of it for passionate pleading and moving and beautiful language. The burden of its supplication was, that an ever-merciful and benignant Father of us all would watch over our noble young soldiers, and aid, comfort, and encourage them in their patriotic work; bless them, shield them in the day of battle and the hour of peril, bear them in His mighty hand, make them strong and confident, invincible in the bloody onset; help them to crush the foe, grant to them and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory – An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a robe that reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even to ghastliness. With all eyes following and wondering, he made his silent way; without pausing, he ascended to the preacher's side and stood there, waiting. With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, continued his moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, uttered in fervent appeal, "Bless our arms, grant us victory, O Lord our God, Father and Protector of our land and flag!"

The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside – which the startled minister did – and took his place. During some moments he surveyed the spellbound audience with solemn eyes, in which burned an uncanny light; then in a deep voice he said:

"I come from the Throne – bearing a message from Almighty God!" The words smote the house with a shock; if the stranger perceived it he gave no attention. "He has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd, and will grant it if such be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have explained to you its import – that is to say, its full import. For it is like unto many of the prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is aware of – except he pause and think.

"God's servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he paused and taken thought? Is it one prayer? No, it is two – one uttered, the other not. Both have reached the ear of Him Who heareth all supplications, the spoken and the unspoken. Ponder this – keep it in mind. If you would beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at the same time. If you pray for the blessing of rain upon your crop which needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a curse upon some neighbor's crop which may not need rain and can be injured by it.

"You have heard your servant's prayer – the uttered part of it. I am commissioned of God to put into words the other part of it – that part which the pastor – and also you in your hearts – fervently prayed silently. And ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these words: 'Grant us victory, O Lord our God!' That is sufficient. The whole of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory – must follow it, cannot help but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God the Father fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!

"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle – be Thou near them! With them – in spirit – we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with hurricanes of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with their little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it – for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen."

[After a pause.] "Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits."

It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.

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Greg B
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2,000+ years of violence in the Holy Land.

Everybody killin' each other in the name of The God.

The fastest way to get punched out in the U.S. is discuss race or insult a religion.

All the fighting and no one getting the big picture. They shoulda taken a cue from Uncle Walt:

BUILD A THEME PARK.

If all sides would sit down and shut up for a few minutes they'd realize they're sitting on the choicest real estate in the world outside of upstate New York.

Holy Land!

Think of the tours and rides and merchandise! They'd make so much money it would be unfathomable ONLY if they would sit down and knock off the fighting. If you have relatives and dear friends over there like I do you'ld know that dang near 90% want peace and just raise their kids. It's the gangsters just like here and the rest of the world ruining things for the majority. Someone keeps sending high tech weapons to 12th Century mentalities and look what you get.

U.S. Russia, China should all band together and tell everyone over there if they don't make peace we'll take it over and really make sure there's some peace.

Oh, shucks, that wouldn't work cause it's in apocalyptic prophecy.

Danged if you do, danged if you don't.

Maybe have a UN resolution that no one can live in the holy land except holy people who clean up stuff and don't fight.

Just a suggestion. I kinda feel like that place belongs to everyone and we should all take some reponsibility for it.

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Smeeb!
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I say israel gets to keep whatever land they take over this time.
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Caracal
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Hi Greg.

I don't believe in prophecies of doom.

The politicians and idealogs calling this conflict WW3 are spouting their usual idiotic rhetoric.

Its a regional conflict (especilly since we are out of the picture thanks Bushs squandering of our resources in Iraq.) The rest of the world is pretty much sitting on the sidelines.

I don't see how Israel can avoid occuping Lebenon again and this time I doubt they'll stop in the south. No one has the political power to prevent this as far as i can tell so far.

Israel has challanged the official Lebanese government to react by bombing an official Lebanese military base to see if they would take initiative against Hezbollah but the government is just too weak to deal with them.

Hezbollah constitutes around 20 percent of the govenrment and provides a lot of infrastruture to the community. I believe they are the only political entity that would dare to attack Israel directly so I don't see how Israel really has any choice but to drive them out.

I would guess Israel has probably been working on the strategy for this scenario for several years waiting to see how things would evolve in the Palestinian elections. Their focused targeting of the airport and bridges effectively isolated the entire city wihin hours instead of weeks.

I hope it doesn't break out into a war with Syria but I doubt it could be sustained beyond that.

We aren't blameless in all of this either. Bush has already made two fatal mistakes in regards to this conflict. The first is that the Palestinian conflict (as opposed to Iraq) is the lynchpin for practically every important political decision made in or about the middle east. This adminstration has essentially ignored the Palestinian question for 6 years. The second mistake he made was launching a pre-emptive war on a sovereign state.

Theres a reason pre emptive war has been rejected by the US and every other western nation(at least before Iraq) not to mention rejected historically by our own military stategists. The reason is that if one nation can do it do it then any other nation is justified in doing it as well.

Thats why western nations have been in agreement that they have to be attacked first before thet declare war on another nation.

well that a whole other subject but suffice it to say we share a big chunk of the resposibility for whats happening right now.

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Greg B
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I have a theory...

We either have to get rid of religion or get rid of war.

The two obviously don't work well together.

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Caracal
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I just hope our next leader Democrat or Republican isn't a diplomats nightmare. We need someone with the chops to get negotiations started again.
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eboles
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quote:
We either have to get rid of religion or get rid of war.

The two obviously don't work well together.

I think more than religious divisions it comes down to poor ability at communication and empathy. Maybe they should give classes worldwide on this sort of thing. Humans have always had natural tendancies of spliting into different tribes, but I don't doubt that mutual understanding is possible. You can't just leave the tensions simmering and hope for the best. People need to put their feelings out in the open and learn to listen as well. In this case, words are quite clearly preferable to the sort of actions we are seeing.

And all this WW3 talk is not at all constructive and needs to stop. It's the worst kind of self-fulfilling prophecy.

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Ganklin
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i agree. however, i can see how things could unravel very quickly. maybe it would be wise to look at it from that context as a POSSIBLE WW3 senerio and try to understand it so that we can avoid it.

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Greg B
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Sorry if I sound a bit harsh, but negotiations are what got this mess started in the first place.

You can't negotiate with hateful, crazy people.

It does-not-work.

Problem is that we half-ass kickin' ass and leaves the same crazy people alive to start it up all over again.

If you wage a war, wage a war.

There is no gray area in combat.

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eboles
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quote:
negotiations are what got this mess started in the first place.

You can't negotiate with hateful, crazy people.

...but if you take that attitude, you too will be percieved as hateful and crazy. Beyond reason. It is when this opinion is possesed by both sides that negotiations break down.
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Charles
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Here here, Greg. I have to say I'm with ya on this as much as I hate the thought of the scenario and everything it means.

I'll state for the record that I am flat out against this extremist fanatic devil ridden form of Islam and anything else whose similar means and methods are blessed by their holy men. When you decree the mindless slaughter and extermination of people for your political purposes, when you deliberately distort history to suite your ideological needs, that's fascism. Nothing less.

It was reported yesterday that Hezbollah in Iran stated they welcome World War III with open arms. They doom themselves. Free people don't back down from a fight to be free and if that's the only option that the enemy leaves open then so be it. You brought it upon your own head. Lord have mercy on us all.

As time goes on, the gray areas will start to diminish and people are going to have to choose which side of the fence they're going to be sitting on. I choose to sit on the side of truth and rationality and common sense and goodwill before giving in to the armies of the righteous or the party of God or holy war lunatics if their way means death and death and more death.

A statement from Hezbollah, in response to the vociferous objections to the attack of theirs that started all of this, from Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt and other Arab and Muslim states, said that they didn't care if the entire universe were against them, they would not give up the 2 kidnapped Isaeli soldiers to end this bloodshed and permit a cease fire.

What the World Needs Now is Love, Sweet Love. Just ask Jackie DeShannon.

How about that beach party for peace! Here's a gift of love to all the world from the beautiful coastline of what looks like Japan.

We here on the California coastline, USA say hello to all and wish love and happiness to our neighbors, friends and to people everywhere!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs8JzhpkGUY&search=jackie%20deshannon%20what%20the%20world% 20needs

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Greg B
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Leave it to Charles and those 'Reed Richard' speeches [Smile]

Not to mince words also, we can't resolve the problem between the fanatical religious people. They're not using their cognitive analytical reasoning, they're acting on stimulus response dictations from their unconscious minds. You can't debate with the ID. It's like having a conversation about current events with an alligator. It doesn't understand you and it's only concern is whether you'll digest easy.

We're on the verge of magnificent scientific discoveries the likes of which are nothing short of miraculous. In a few years, maybe ten years on the outside medicine on Earth will be akin to something out of Star Trek. Problem is we'll have 21st Century science and 12th Century mentality backed up by prehistoric impulsiveness.

This isn't WWIII, this is 'Decision Day' that day in any technologically advanced yet sociologically retarded planet's life cycle. By not handling the monsters of the ID we end up having to destroy a billion people, and we will have to destroy a billion or more in order to stablilize this planet.

The Muslim people are generally sweet and kind and generous people, but they've got that small percentage who are insane and will stop at nothing to destroy using religion as justification for doing so. The only major religion that doesn't do the conquest thing is Buddhism if I'm correct.

The Muslim populace cannot fight back against the crazy men who infiltrate their civilization. Sure our ancestors in the U.S. fought off the British Empire but the weapons and technologies then are nowhere near as sophisticated as todays. People can't fight back against rocket propelled grenades, high tech aircraft, etc.

The world is no longer big enough for Islam and a few others. Unfortunately that's how it's come to be. One day, unless God steps in, we'll wake up and there won't be a billion of us around anymore.

Earth can't tolerate it. We won't advance if it continues.

It's a showdown, once and for all, give or take.

Get your personal affairs in order.

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Ganklin
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so the isreali army is lined up on the boarder and ready to go in. i think they will move in as an occupational force very soon.

caracal made a remark about bush squandering our forces in iraq. i'd like to comment on that. i do not feel that is true, and i think we need to look at the bigger picture here. hezzbollah is backed by syria and iran, correct?. geographically speaking, what is smack dab in the middle of isreal and iran and the U.S. has miliary bases situated at? following the commonly held belief that hussein's iraq was a fagile and weak target, what would have kept the iranian supply line from flying right past bagdad (and most likely with hussein's blessing) had there be no american force in presence?

that entire region is completely unbalanced and rouge. i think our miliary simply sitting there in the ocean is enough to keep certain people from leaping on the let's-kill-a-bunch-of-jews-train en masse.

i think about america's revolution and try to compare it to hezbollah in an attempt to understand. its arguable that the colonial uprising boardered on terrorist acts, but i belive we differed strongly in method and intention. we filled boston's harbor with tea, not blood. we fought because we sought out independance as a nation, not becasue we wanted to wipe the brits off the face of the earth to the point of genocide. the symbol we chose to represent ourselves was not emblazoned with a fist holding an AK.

isreal has been bombing the crap out of lebanon in an attempt to knock out supply lines and weaken the infrastructure, but hezbollah is just lobbing rockets over the boarder. there's no target or at least a plan other than to just kill whoever is in that rocket's path. out of the some 800 deaths attributed to hezbollah's attacks around the world, at least 240 were american soldiers in one of the biggest non-nuclear blasts in history by a suicide bomber...over a quarter of their death toll was our boys and girls in uniform.

it becomes very diffucult to understand these people and why they do what they do. it just stinks of murder and genocide.

i agree to an extent with greg's comments. however, i always have hope and keep the faith that things won't go too nutty.

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Greg B
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Ganklin,

Ja, the Marine Barracks bombing back in '83 I remember it vividly. You'll see my name in several newspapers and magazines regarding it. Same with some tv newscasts. It was a horrible time and fortunately my buddies survived. It was a miracle and what the real story is has not been told and out of respect of those lost we'll leave it that way.

Let's put one thing in perspective though. Lebanon is no innocent babe in the woods. The best marijuana and cocaine ever acquired was there in Beirut back in the 80s. Now how did that happen? Isn't that an Islamic country?

There's a lot of sabre rattling and horrifying homicide bombers.

Israel should be cautious with a land invasion as it could be a booby trap set up.

The U.S. is ineffective against guerilla fighting. Look at the number of gangs and organized crime groups in the U.S. the government is too chicken **** to fight. That's right I said chicken **** . We can't take care of our own country occupied by heavily armed gangs so how are we going to handle another country's? Heck, our gangs wear t-shirts and starter jackets with their names emblazened on them. It's not like we don't know who they are they even hold picnics for charitable events.

It's bs gang. If you're under 45 years old there's a good chance if another major war breaks out the draft will get you. Us old timers will have our kids sucked up.

In order for Israel to win this they have to hit hard and precisely with such force it becomes disorienting.

For the meantime, be careful whereever you are especially if you're overseas. These nuts might plan mass kidnappings of Americans just in retaliation.

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Caracal
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Ganklin you and I must live on two separate planets if you think our invasion into Iraq has a stabilizing influence on Syria , Iran and Islamic radical factions. The reality is totally opposite of the viewpoint your expressing.

I can't fathom how you reached this conclusion. We are spread out so thin now that Iran and Korea can thumb their noses at us by the mere fact they happen to have effective military assets. Iraq only had a skeleton army and look what its cost us 3 years later. Our military occupation has served to inflame regional conflicts not ease them.

Stategically speaking the invasion of Iraq is the most imbecilic action the United States could have taken. Bush has shown a complete lack of understanding of the geo political forces in the middle east. And every where else in the world for that matter.

I wish McCain was in the White House right now with Korea ready to aim missiles at the west coast instaed of this fool.

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Tobias A. Wolf
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quote:
yeah, that's the real reason we're in Iraq. Israel just wasn't cutting the mustard as our middleman to all that black stuff anymore. sheesh.
Israel has never been the strategic magic bullet or "middleman" to our energy supply security. And I don't think I said any such thing in my prior post. Their territory has always been the Suez. And the bases on Saudi soil afforded tactical support to our permanently parked cruisers and carriers in the gulf. But those bases were on lease, and it's over there. Now there's going to be a permanent encampment of U.S. land based forces in Iraq. I.e. The Israeli coverage of the Suez is absolutely mitigated.

It doesn't appear to me that you have asked yourself some key questions concerning U.S. - Israeli policy. Or, I may be wrong, and you have, but, you came to different conclusions. So, I'm curious as to why you think Israel receives more U.S. aid than any other any other state on the face of the earth. As this question is fundamentally unanswered by most accounts in the U.S. press. In fact, an exploration of it strikes me as a unspoken taboo given it's scarcity.

So do you think it's because as a collective society we still feel guilty about Roosevelt's response to the news of the holocaust, or we just always stand up for the little guy, or Israel just deservers it because we say so, I don't know, it's bizarre how Americans just automatically side with Israel in their rhetoric. Sometimes I think it's because it's the kind of position they heard on the radio, or T.V. news without ever actually exploring it through ingesting divergent media sources and questioning for themselves.

Ever heard of the Suez Canal? Do you know how much energy goes through it each year that reaches American an European shores? If you think that our Israeli policy and aid has nothing to do with this strategic asset, well, I'm not going to say it. But, hey, keep on believing buddy.

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