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Author Topic: Freedom of Speech Illustrated..
OFFBEAT
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quote:

A Secret Service officer covers the mouth of Wenyi Wang, 47, as she is escorted from the camera stand after she disrupted the speech of Chinese President Hu Jintao, not pictured, during an arrival ceremony with President Bush on the South Lawn of the White House, Thursday, April 20, 2006, in Washington. The protester interrupted the ceremony by shouting to Bush to stop the Chinese president from 'persecuting the Falun Gong.'Stephen Gregory, a spokesman for the Falun Gong-affiliated newspaper The Epoch Times, said she had received a press credential through the newspaper. He identified her as a doctor with a specialty in pathology, a Falun Gong practitioner based in New York.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060420/ap_on_go_pr_wh/hu_protester_19;_ylt=AjsaQvg6mCFVakdDKR qd775PzWQA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

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-FP-
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Yeah, the prƏzuhdiŋt actually apologized to Hu for a citizen exercising constitutional rights. Maybe he was worried China's gonna call in its loans or something.
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OFFBEAT
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"Guards! Seize that rabblerousing.. um ...47 year old female doctor.. um.. threat to national security or something like that... She's TERROR-izing me!"

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SNAKEBITE
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it was a costume malfunction...move along, move along....

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Fooksie
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Bet your shoes were made in China.

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starla30
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I'm a proponent of free speech as much as anyone else but if they just let her yell at the guy for the whole speech, China would have gotten really pissed. Sorry guys, but we don't want a pissed China on our hands. Don't get me wrong, I'm REALLY GLAD that this woman protested. I think it's awesome and I'm glad that she was heard and that it's newsworthy. I hope someday the situation in China changes. But you can't help change it if the country is pissed at one of the countries that is in a good position to effect change. Some changes have to be slow.
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OFFBEAT
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That's not how it works.. we either have free speech or we don't. There's no exceptions and limitations.

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SNAKEBITE
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China is already pissed at us...hell, the whole world is pissed at us these days...and this is one of the reasons why.

Besides, in order to please a country like China do we have to act like them? If so I say FTG.

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Caracal
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Godd call Offbeat

Very first thought that passed into my head on seeing the video. Free speech being supressed by force by the President of the United States in our capital. This guy is a total disgrace. Just heard on the News hour how livid the president was that the secret service took so long to supress this brave woman. If she had attempted this in China she'd be in prison now or worse.

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Caracal
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oops that was good call not god call:)

By the way the other shoe dropping was listening to Bush say he wanted to see more freedom and civil rights for the people of China and then tell reporters Tuesday our country's continued opposition to Taiwan "independence."

Cheers

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Ganklin
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you guys are rediculous. we all have the right to say and do what we want as long as it does not interfere with the rights of others. there was an offical gathering of people who were doing their thing when someone comes up and starts yelling their head off. boom. you get the boot.

please try this for me. please go to any public space be it a mall, a library, the middle of a movie being shown at the local theater, or just stand up in your seat at a broadway play. start yelling your head off about how much you love your favorite color. don't stop when people tell you to shut up. next, start counting how fast security guards show up to remove you from the premesis, or how quickly someone takes a swing at you.

that lady has every right to protest. go organize something and march down the street. as long as its orderly and peaceful, then you have the right to say whatever you want. however, she did NOT have her arms cut off for voicing her oppinion. she did NOT loose her home. the worst thing that probably happened to her was she possibly spent a night in jail or maybe got hit with a fine. big whoop. a small price to pay to get your message out there.

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Thomas
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Better be careful Ganklin, you might hurt their "Bush is out to get ME!" mindset

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-FP-
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I'd say Dr. Wang, the protester, did well. She brought the Falun Gong matter to the attention of people who'd never heard of it. She got our muzzled press to acknowledge by doing it the way she did. She embarrassed and angered Bush, which is always a very good thing.
quote:
please go to any public space be it a mall, a library, the middle of a movie being shown at the local theater, or just stand up in your seat at a broadway play. start yelling your head off about how much you love your favorite color
There may be some small difference between the importance of your favorite color and what this lady was protesting. If she had organized the orderly protest you suggest, there would be most assuredly be no press coverage, except possibly by some newspapers in other countries. She could never have caught the ear of Hu himself otherwise. Her actions made sure the world knows the matter has been directly brought to Hu's attention, no matter how unceremoniously. The live video broadcast showed the world the Wang in Hu's face.
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SNAKEBITE
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I agree, there are some matters that call for such tactics. Many important issues get overlooked because they don't get any kinda press. The little man/woman has to do what they have to do.

Besides, why should we be accomidating this man? Hu you say? I say exactly. hehehe Who the hell is he...more money for us? right, I get it.

Sometimes one person has to find the courage to do something others won't.

Some people want to stand for human rights ..far from a proclimation of ones favorite color.

I believe if a leader is gonna make public appearances and engage the public that leader should be open to hear all things. not just selected, convienent things. These types of things should not be looked at like tours to stroke the leaders ego or our economic relations.

anyways,
I LOVE THE COLOR BLUE!!!

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Jennifer Hachigian Jerrard
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quote:
the worst thing that probably happened to her was she possibly spent a night in jail or maybe got hit with a fine. big whoop.
quote:
From http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0422/china.html

...

47-year-old Wang Wenyi was charged before the Court in Washington with harassing, intimidating and threatening a foreign official.

...

If convicted, she could face six months in jail and a fine equivalent to €4,000.

...



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Steve G
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quote:
Better be careful Ganklin, you might hurt their "Bush is out to get ME!" mindset

Yes...the majority of the country is in that mindset. Having trouble dealing with being one of the minority that is in the "Bush is right no matter what" mindset?

The 'shouting about your favorite color in a theater' is a strawman argument and typical of Rove-type politics. Congratulations you've demeaned this woman's cause and rights.

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Ganklin
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hah now you folks are just being funny. especially since now you've taken it apon yourselves to put words in my mouth. how do you know what my stance on our president is? maybe i can't stand the guy and can't wait for him to get out of office. maybe i think he's a swell guy. or maybe i'm a homosexual american-chinese guy who thinks the falun gong are full of **** (e) becasue i think they way i live my life is fine? my only comment was that the consequnces for her actions at that point in time was not surprising.

now who's close-minded?

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SNAKEBITE
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our government, currently.

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Richard
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I totally agree StephG! It doesn't take much to figure out that freedom of expression is on the wayside. It also shows you that Bush is totally afraid of China considering their massive economic potential.

This disgusts me beyond reason.

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OFFBEAT
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I think leaders of men should be CONSTANTLY put on the spot like that publically. Constantly challenged. Answer for everything. Remind them who really is boss.

It doesn't happen enough in my opinion.

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SNAKEBITE
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I agree.

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Mr. Fun
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I agree as well.

People have to take a stand. At one time Black people could not vote in the south, and this was during my lifetime. Think anything would have changed were it not for the civil rights movement?

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Bruce
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Ran across this headline this morning: "Animation Producer Gets Ugly Slurs." I think this is more of an example of editing than animation, but I applaud this fifteen-year-old’s courage, determination and her skill in getting her point of view across. Strong stuff. The responses to her work are . . . well, I guess, given the current state of the national dialogue, they’re to be expected.
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Graphiteman
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Freedom of speech in action: Have you heard or seen this guy. Harry Taylor has become a national hero.
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Thomas
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Bush conducted himself quite well I applaud him. As for the other guy being a hero...Well it doesn't take that much bravery to publicly stand up a polititian in this country and disagree with him/her, seeing as how it is a constitutionally protected right. The only thing that made this stand out was that this guy managed to get in to an event for which the attendees are usually hand picked to be there.

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SNAKEBITE
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yeah, that is unusual...since, being hand picked means one is not very likely to use ones consitutional rights...I mean, whats the point of hand picking people if they are gonna act up...geesh (that last part was sarcasm)

I remember a couple of years back, a peaceful, constitutionally protected protest in Seattle...police came out to demonstate their federally protected clubs on peoples cranial protected brains...good times, small stuff...

We have alot of rights, but they don't always apply and it is very hard for some people to stand their ground when they don't. Our rights are something we pay for and then some....actually, we rent our rights and when the landlords don't feel like facilitating those rented rights, we're out on the streets screaming to be heard.

Someitmes the heros are those that do the things the rest are not capable of doing...even if it is considered a right...cuz in this land majority rules and most people are far from right...mostly wrong...mostly...

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LeftyMcKay
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Those "peaceful" "heroes" from Seattle were responsible for preventing delegates from leaving their hotels, blocking access to conference facilities and spray-painting walls and police cars with anti-WTO graffiti (before the police took action). I don't know which constitution you're reading but in the United States those actions are hardly legal.

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SNAKEBITE
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that was such a minority of people who spray painted police cars. hardly worth the ammount of arrests and beatings.

as far as blocking areas, thats what happens when people get into huge protests, sht gets blocked and slowed down. part of the intent of a protest...but again, hardly a reason for all the arrests and beatings...nothing you list jusitifies beatings..I don't know which constituition YOU"RE reading.

The foundation of those protests was anti violence. but when ever you get groups of people in one area theres always gonna be a few people to fuk it up for the rest...but again, nothing justifies violence by police in this example.

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LeftyMcKay
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I never suggested that any overreaction by the police was justified. I just have a problem with identifying thugs as heroes, let alone peaceful. It is possible to protest peacefully and I respect those who do so, but the WTO protesters did everything they could to disrupt everyone who wasn't protesting, thereby trampling on their constitutional rights.

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SNAKEBITE
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I was identifying with the people who protested peacefully. The press likes to focus only on the thugs (who I respect too, thugs are people too and express themselves in ways they know). but with how many people that were there, I doubt they where all thugs. I don't even think the majority of them where. Training in any kind of physical combat will show you that 5 percent of people will attack instinctually, the rest will hesitate or try to find another solution....and I bet the majority of the 5percent in this case were cops.

I have found, though, that in this life/reality the agressive people win...so sometime people of peace have to be a little agressive to make change. Right or wrong, its the status of this world. Its the duality of human nature.

But two wrongs don't make a right...but three lefts do...

what I really like about this picture is that a black woman is putting her hand over the mouth of another to ensure submission...classic...

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Thomas
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Snake I find it surprising that you would find it apalling to see self described "thugs" get treated in kind.

It's almost expected that whenever/wherever a WTO meeting takes place you get the rent-a-mob showing up breaking things, vandalizing buildings, & being general nuisances of themselves. I’m sure the police of the world recognize this, thus they take the appropriate actions against the jackasses who commit the crimes. In this post Rodney King world we live in, the police are very aware of the cameras the anarchists carry with them, in order to document any aggressions against them. So you generally don’t see a whole lot of unjustified police actions taking place these days, at those rallies.

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Ganklin
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please tell me what should have been done here. someone inturrupts a ceremony and causes a general ruckus. so, everyone should have just stepped aside and let her yell her face off? to what end? for all anyone knew, she had a bomb strapped to her chest and was gonna assasinate not our president, but the chinese. or maybe she was a distraction for the sniper half a mile away. im sure you guys would actually love if that one happened...yet more more thing to rail against. then what?

and here's another side note for you to chew on: i have no doubt security DID know what was going on. does anyone here know what the falun gong are about? they're a newly founded relious sect in china that is cultish in nature, and seems very similar to scientology but with the addition of being able to fly and other extra sensory stuff (there IS some alien stuff in there though). of course, no one here has ANY problems bashing scientology and in fact its done at length here. the falun gong are openly hostile towards homosexuality and think it is "degenerative behavior". they think children of mixed race are "demon spawn". i don't know about you, but that's just about all of america, including myself.

the chinese government is not too fond of them. they are basically persecuted and thrown in jail for their beliefs. afterall, china is a communist country. there's some stories flaoting around that the chinese government is havesting their organs...

im no expert, but that's what i know of them. just thought you'd like to know what you're supporting.

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akinney
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ganglin that is just ridiculous - j"just thought you'd like to know what you're supporting" My adopted siblings are black but I would defend the KKK's right to say (not do) what they want - they have that right. So you're pulling the "you're either with the terrorists or your with us" crap. I don't care what the Falun Gong's religion says because I'm not a member but I think they have the right to exist and believe what they want. You're saying that if you defend their right to practive their believe you are endorsing everything they say and that is hors****. I don't think Pat Robertson has said one sane thing but I think he has the right to say it and that doesn't mean I agree with it. You claim to be no expert and maybe you are no expert in world history either because a religous people were detained and systematically taken care of in Europe also - I 'm not a Jew (and therefore don't deny or endorse their beliefs) but I sure am not a fan of what happened to them in the Holocaust. Maybe you should look into what is reported (yes, reported, not rumored) to what is happening to this group to make sure you're not supporting that: Wikipedia: "The persecution of Falun Gong practitioners has been regarded by most Western governments as a major international human rights issue. In 2000, Ian Johnson of the Wall Street Journal investigated the reports of abuse and published a series of investigative articles that won him the Pulitzer Prize the following year. According to the Falun Dafa Information Center (FDI), there are, as of March 12, 2006, 2,840 verified cases of Falun Gong practitioners dying in police and government custody in mainland China, giving rise to allegations of torture and police brutality. The report also alleges that hundreds of thousands of Falun Gong practitioners have been detained, with more than 100,000 sentenced to forced-labor camps. Moreover, there are more than 30,000 documented cases of persecution..." Ganklin, maybe things would have ended a little sooner if someone like this lady would have raised a voice to increase public awareness in 1938 instead of Time Magazine giving HHitler the Person of the Year title. but then again people might not have wanted to "support" any groups and their beliefs.
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akinney
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Sorry for the typos above and also - I don't mean to sound really hostile at you Gangklin. I just believe in the right to express - as much as I disagree with your opinion I would be just as upset if someone put their hand over your mouth to silence it. You have the right to speak and so does she and sometimes things aren't fun to hear but if it stops genocide then I suppose we can inconvenience a few politicians and delay a couple tax paid dinners so the people know what's going on. People are dying - sorry if that embarrasses the Chinese Hitler.
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Steve G
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Well said, akinney. The funny thing about freedom of speech is that you don't allow freedom of speech for only those you agree with.

Besides she wasn't utilizing her 'freedom of speech' (and being denid it) to try and convince anyone to convert to her way of thinking, but to bring to light how the Chinese gov't is treating these people. Not that that would matter.

You MIGHT have an argument if she was preaching hate or screaming how she liked to have sex with children, but we should leave that to others...

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OFFBEAT
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The Hangman

Into our town the Hangman came
Smelling of gold and blood and flame
and he paced our bricks with a diffident air
and built his frame on the courthouse square

The scaffold stood by the courthouse side,
Only as wide as the door was wide;
A frame as tall, or little more,
Than the capping sill of the courthouse door

And we wondered, whenever we had the time.
Who the criminal, what the crime.
That Hangman judged with the yellow twist
of knotted hemp in his busy fist.

And innocent though we were, with dread,
We passed those eyes of buckshot lead:
Till one cried: "Hangman, who is he
For whom you raise the gallows-tree?"

Then a twinkle grew in the buckshot eye,
And he gave us a riddle instead of reply:
"He who serves me best," said he,
"Shall earn the rope on the gallows-tree."

And he stepped down. and laid his hand
On a man who came from another land
And we breathed again, for another's grief
At the Hangman's hand was our relief

And the gallows-frame on the courthouse lawn
By tomorrow's sun would be struck and gone.
So we gave him way, and no one spoke.
Out of respect for his Hangman's cloak.

The next day's sun looked mildly down
On roof and street in our quiet town
And stark and black in the morning air,
The gallows-tree on the courthouse square.

And the Hangman stood at his usual stand
With the yellow hemp in his busy hand;
With his buckshot eye and his jaw like a pike
And his air so knowing and business like.

And we cried, "Hangman, have you not done
Yesterday. with the alien one?"
Then we fell silent, and stood amazed,
"Oh, not for him was the gallows raised."

He laughed a laugh as he looked at us:
"...Did you think I'd gone to all this fuss
To hang one man? That's a thing I do
To stretch a rope when the rope is new."

Then one cried "Murder!" One cried "Shame!"
And into our midst the Hangman came
To that man's place. "Do you hold," said he,
"with him that was meant for the gallows-tree?"

And he laid his hand on that one's arm.
And we shrank back in quick alarm,
And we gave him way, and no one spoke
Out of fear of his Hangman's cloak.

That night we saw with dread surprise
The Hangman's scaffold had grown in size.
Fed by the blood beneath the chute
The gallows-tree had taken root;

Now as wide, or a little more,
Than the steps that led to the courthouse door,
As tall as the writing, or nearly as tall,
Halfway up on the courthouse wall.

The third he took-we had all heard tell
Was a user and infidel, and
"What," said the Hangman "have you to do
With the gallows-bound, and he a Jew?"

And we cried out, "Is this one he
Who has served you well and faithfully?"
The Hangman smiled: "It's a clever scheme
to try the strength of the gallows-beam."

The fourth man's dark, accusing song
Had scratched out comfort hard and long;
And what concern, he gave us back.
"Have you for the doomed--the doomed and black?"

The fifth. The sixth. And we cried again,
"Hangman, Hangman, is this the last?"
"It's a trick," he said. "that we hangmen know
For easing the trap when the trap springs slow.""

And so we ceased, and asked no more,
As the Hangman tallied his bloody score:
And sun by sun, and night by night,
The gallows grew to monstrous height.

The wings of the scaffold opened wide
Till they covered the square from side to side:
And the monster cross-beam, looking down.
Cast its shadow across the town.

Then through the town the Hangman came
And called in the empty streets my name-
And I looked at the gallows soaring tall
And thought, "There is no one left at all

For hanging." And so he calls to me
To help pull down the gallows-tree.
And I went out with right good hope
To the Hangman's tree and the Hangman's rope.

He smiled at me as I came down
To the courthouse square through the silent town.
And supple and stretched in his busy hand
Was the yellow twist of the strand.

And he whistled his tune as he tried the trap
And it sprang down with a ready snap
And then with a smile of awful command
He laid his hand upon my hand.

"You tricked me. Hangman!," I shouted then.
"That your scaffold was built for other men...
And I no henchman of yours," I cried,
"You lied to me. Hangman. foully lied!"

Then a twinkle grew in the buckshot eye,
"Lied to you? Tricked you?" he said. "Not I.
For I answered straight and I told you true"
The scaffold was raised for none but you.

For who has served me more faithfully
Then you with your coward's hope?" said he,
"And where are the others that might have stood
Side by your side in the common good?,"

"Dead," I whispered, and sadly
"Murdered," the Hangman corrected me:
"First the alien, then the Jew...
I did no more than you let me do."

Beneath the beam that blocked the sky.
None had stood so alone as I
And the Hangman strapped me, and no voice there
Cried "Stay!" for me in the empty square

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"Get Rich, or Die Drawing!"

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SNAKEBITE
IE # 101
Member # 17

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right on, akinney!

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Ganklin
IE # 14
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i was just stating facts. there's never one side to any story. the falun gong say they're peaceful, but they have a dark side don't they? i know that people would look at some of what they believe in as words of hate and biggotry and would be instantly met with words of their own to drown them out.

i challenge you to go publically support the KKK. i'm as white as you get, and i don't care one lick for them or what they stand for.

and i DO know a thing or two about history thank you very much. in fact, why do you REALLY think we are involved in the middle east in the way we are today? bin laden himself just said it the other day: our support for israel which has stretched back all the way to at least WW2.

speaking of WW2, maybe you should actually try to read that TIME article you brought to light...its not exactly making Hitler a saint, is it?

finally, i still think this was NOT a violation of free speech.

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http://fsummers.blogspot.com/
www.shamoozal.com

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Jennifer Hachigian Jerrard
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quote:
i challenge you to go publically support the KKK.
I'm not sure what this has to do with what akinney said. His statement: "...I would defend the KKK's right to say (not do) what they want - they have that right."

-+-

Someone (Voltaire?) who supported freedom of speech once said, "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it."

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akinney
IE # 167
Member # 3050

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Ganklin, I'm not going to get into a war of words so I will make my last point and politely bow out of this discussion. You are not just stating facts (and you know so) when you lay out a blanket accusation like you did. To make a statement like: "im no expert, but that's what i know of them. just thought you'd like to know what you're supporting." is pointing a finger saying that anyone who is defending a groups right to exist, believe and speak are blindly putting stock and support in what they say. That is a pretty manipulative way to lump people together. That is why I responded is because that is a tasteless tactic and you should expect people to come at your for it. I don't like sugar cookies but if somebody said that mom's should have the right to make sugar cookies I wouldn't automatically assume that that guy eat 3 dozen sugar cookies a day - dig? You are mixing apples and oranges by mixing the right to speak and the content of the speech. You did it again in your last post by challenging me to publicly support the KKK because you missed my point completely that I don't support what the KKK stands for but I absolutely support their right to free speech because that is just the way free speech works - you can't just have free speech for the stuff you like 'cause it ain't free speech at that point is it? So, again, I don't support the KKK but I think that they should have speech rights - how can I make that clear enough for you. I don't support a lot of religions but I think they should have rights. Are you following now? I don't care if the Falun Gong has a dark side? I couldn't care less. But I do care that they are being arrested, tortured, killed and disappearing for their beliefs.

Another case of you twisting words into things is when you simply imply that the Falun Gong are not peaceful because of their beliefs - what violence have then done? You insinuate that they are not peaceful but the truth is (from everything I have read) they have not acted out in an violence. They may have racist and prejudice beliefs but they aren't violent from what I know and if they are you should at least provide some facts instead of just submitting their odd and bigoted speech as fact that they are violent is just baseless. I've seen passive bigots - just because you're a racist doesn't mean you are violent.

I'm not going to respond to your middle east tangent because it exactly that - a tangent. I'm not going to pull ideas and topics out of left field and throw them into the mix like that because it just makes no sense.

I never stated that the article made Hitler a saint, I said it made Hitler Man of the Year which (to me) is a pretty crazy thing. This is about as harsh a light that I saw the article putting Hitler in:

"Pace Quickened. Germany's 700,000 Jews have been tortured physically, robbed of homes and properties, denied a chance to earn a living, chased off the streets. Now they are being held for "ransom," a gangster trick through the ages. But not only Jews have suffered. Out of Germany has come a steady, ever- swelling stream of refugees, Jews and Gentiles, liberals and conservatives, Catholics as well as Protestants, who could stand Naziism no longer. "

I would call that getting off light, wouldn't you? That's beside the point. You missed my point entirely - what I was saying was that the Chinese Hitler is that and maybe if the world took Hitler seriously as a murderer and someone came forward we would not have let Germany do what it did for so long. But nobody did come forward, people looked away - kind of like they did when that lady's mouth was covered and she was escorted away.

You have the right to agree with her being escorted away and Bush going about his way with his nose up Hu's ***. That's fine, we just disagree - I won't cover your mouth if you won't cover mind. Deal?

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