AnimationNation Forum

AnimationNation
Topic Closed  Topic Closed


Post New Topic  
Topic Closed  Topic Closed
my profile login | | search | faq | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» AnimationNation   » SideTopics   » Will certain cartoonist be targeted for death now. (Page 3)

 
This topic is comprised of pages:  1  2  3 
 
Author Topic: Will certain cartoonist be targeted for death now.
Charles
Administrator
Member # 7

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Charles           Edit/Delete Post 
One more thing as a follow up to Amid's accusations.

I post three links in this thread dealing with educating oneself in Islam.

The first two are sites hosted by level headed Muslims. The kind who should be at the forefront of the religion but aren't. Very good sites for learning about the faith.

www.islamtoday.com and www.islamfortoday.com

The third site I link to is www.faithfreedom.org This site seems to be sponsored by apostates. People who at one time were Muslim but are no longer.

My erudition comes from reading the Koran from front to back cover. I've also read extensively about the life of Mohammed. I've also read the entire Bible, both Old and New Testaments from the first words of "In the beginning" to the very last word "Amen". Studied the history of the Bible for 3 semesters in college. Read the Gnostic Gospels. I've read the Book of Mormon and "No Man Knows My History" which is about the life of Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon religion. I've delved into the Bagavad-Gita (please excuse the spelling), I've explored Buddhism, was on my way to the Talmud and the Kabala when life just got too busy and I had to focus attention elsewhere.

Theology is something of a hobby of mine. I like to learn about what others believe. It expands ones own horizons.

And one more thing. I do hate. I hate hate. I also hate ignorance, impatience, greed, intollerance, the subjugation of peoples, injustice, and an assortment of other things related to the aforementioned, but especially the idea that to be righteous one must condone the slaughter of innocent people in the name of their religion or God.

There are many religions that have comitted atrocities during the span of their histories. Christian sects are certainly high among them no doubt as is Islam. But in this day and age, if the Olympics for religious intollerance were being held, radical Islam would be walking away with the gold medal hands down.

This is what Jesus, a prophet of Islam as proclaimed by Mohammed, had to say about religious righteousness.

"Let them see the good deeds that you do so that they may give glory to God."

--------------------
 -

IP: Logged
AMID
IE # 43
Member # 289

Icon 1 posted      Profile for AMID   Email AMID         Edit/Delete Post 
Charles - You've linked to Faith Freedom four times in this post and called it an "excellent site." Here is the website's mission statement posted clearly on the front page:

quote:
Islamic terrorism is inspired by Islamic teachings. We can never get rid of Islamic terrorism unless we defeat the ideology behind it and that is Islam itself. Islam induces hate backed by lies. Muhammad was a terrorist by his own admission. All Muslims, to the extent that they follow him, are terrorists. Those Muslims who are not terrorists are ignorant of Islam and are not good Muslims. Fortunately they are the majority. We need to rescue them. If you are a good human being, you are not a Muslim. Read this site and if you can't prove me wrong, which you certainly can't, leave this deceitful cult of hate and terror and join mankind. Don't be part of the Umma. Umma is fascism. It is divisive. It induces the hatred of others. Be part of humanity instead. Your ignorance is not an excuse. Pull your head out of the sand and face the truth, like we did.
Excellent site indeed.

Can't say I'm surprised either. Having read your thoughts about religion on this forum for a number of years, it hardly comes as a surprise that you'd link to a site that calls Muslims terrorists and wants the eradication of Islam.

IP: Logged
gergley
IE # 200
Member # 74

Icon 1 posted      Profile for gergley   Email gergley         Edit/Delete Post 
Here's a backstory on some of what happened between the first publication and now.
A NY Times article, hopefully the link works. It is probably only part of the story, as most things are.

Offbeat, if what you last wrote was about what I wrote ... I was trying to differeniate between the two based on how long it to to get to things becoming bad. Admittedly, it was written as an aside in response to what someone else wrote.


Oh, and I'm sure there are people who won't want to read the Times article but it is does say there were attempts to nullify the controversy in civil ways and since last fall.

I just hope this ends soon.

IP: Logged
eboles
IE # 266
Member # 917

Icon 1 posted      Profile for eboles   Email eboles         Edit/Delete Post 
cartoon protestors face charges

While I found the extremism expressed at some of these protests more disturbing than the actual cartoons, I think there is a danger that it would look hypocritical to charge them. Freedom of speech should work both ways.

IP: Logged
tstevens
IE # 234
Member # 801

Icon 1 posted      Profile for tstevens   Author's Homepage   Email tstevens         Edit/Delete Post 
When protests turn violent with things like vandalism, arson, and even murder, then it is no longer freedom of speech.

The first amendment reads as so...

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The key element is in the line "...or the right of the people peaceably to assemble..."

Riots are not covered! [Big Grin]

--------------------
http://www.foogersnarts.blogspot.com

IP: Logged
eboles
IE # 266
Member # 917

Icon 1 posted      Profile for eboles   Email eboles         Edit/Delete Post 
If you read the article, you would see that it is about 'incitement to murder', which relates to the messages on the placards. Obviously any violent acts that have actually been committed are not covered by 'freedom of speech'.
IP: Logged
The Mod
Administrator
Member # 854

Icon 1 posted      Profile for The Mod   Email The Mod         Edit/Delete Post 
Lets try to bring it back to the topic at hand please.
IP: Logged
Charles
Administrator
Member # 7

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Charles           Edit/Delete Post 
Note to mods, the topic is a freedom of speech issue, so we can be flexible when comments about the subject are offered up in this thread, as long as they don't digress too much.

Amid, if you're going to refer to comments that I've previously made, then the appropriate thing to do would be to use them in the context of which they were originally posted.

Regarding my reference to www.faithfreedom.org you claimed that I called it an "excellent site". Here's the full context of what I posted on the first page of this thread.

"Here's an excellent site if you want to follow what's happening with Islam and the turmoil that fundamentalists are stirring within their own faith." I went on to say that, "It's helpful if you have a knowledge of the Koran and the life of Mohammed. Easier to follow the arguements presented therein. If not it's still an outstanding source of information."

The last sentence from faithfreedom.org's mission statement which you quoted from the site and posted above states...

"...leave this deceitful cult of hate and terror and join mankind. Don't be part of the Umma. Umma is fascism. It is divisive. It induces the hatred of others. Be part of humanity instead. Your ignorance is not an excuse. Pull your head out of the sand and face the truth, like we did."

This is called apostacy, a falling away from the faith, and the author sure sounds like an apostate to me. Someone who used to be a Muslim but has had a change of mind. That's exactly why I referred others to the site. To see for themselves what radical Islam is doing to the faith of Muslims. It is actually pushing them away and encouraging them to encourage others to leave.

That is not hateful on my part, nor is it racist on my part, nor is it insensitive on my part, or anything else you fancy and falsely try to portray here about my character. It is a reality. People within Islam itself are fed up. Islam is soaking in a bubble bath of blood every single day and good people within Islam can do nothing. Even if the will is there they'll likely be targeted for assasination themselves. So what do they do? They leave.

Here's the latest news. In Pakistan, while observing a holy day today, 27 Shiites were murdered by a suicide bomber.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11247934/

And you don't think Islam is in need of reform?

Also, regarding your comment of...

"Can't say I'm surprised either. Having read your thoughts about religion on this forum for a number of years, it hardly comes as a surprise that you'd link to a site that calls Muslims terrorists and wants the eradication of Islam."

What thoughts about religion are you talking about? We've hosted theological discussions on AN for years and have had a great deal of success within our community of people freely, courteously and politely exchanging their ideas, beliefs and feelings. Even atheists and agnostics, although on rare occasions, we've had to ask a member or two to chill a little when their comments bordered on ridicule and offered no substantiative contribution to the discussion.

Your attitude is your worst enemy, sir. I can't help it if what you ascribe to spiritually is being challenged in this way. Faithfreedom.org exists, and not linking to that site in a discussion like this to see what the other side of Islam has to say about what's happening would serve no purpose other than to spare you your discomfort.

Get it together. I'm not a racist, or a hater or anything else that you're trying to portay me as or accuse me of. You're attacking the messenger instead of addressing the message.

And speaking of the message...

--------------------
 -

IP: Logged
Charles
Administrator
Member # 7

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Charles           Edit/Delete Post 
There was a movie made around 1975 that starred Anthony Quinn. It's called "The Message" and I highly recommend seeing it if you can track it down.

The Message is a movie about Mohammed and the origin of Islam. Anthony Quinn plays Mohammed's uncle. It's a remarkable production in that Mohammed is never seen, nor is he ever heard. The entire film is structured in this way. Check it out when and if you can. It's educational on many levels and a good movie to watch as well.

--------------------
 -

IP: Logged
Charles
Administrator
Member # 7

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Charles           Edit/Delete Post 
Oh and by the way, in the case of faithfreedom.org it appears that a death sentence has been decreed on the people behind the website.
.....................

Date: Feb 9, 2006 3:30 AM

Subject: BEWARE!

AL MUNAZZIMA LIDDIFAA LILLAAHI WA RASUULIH INTERNATIONAL ORGANISATION IN THE DEFENCE OF ALLAH & THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD; PEACE BE UPON HIM
REF. NO.: 001/01

DEATH WARRANT

In response to the recent blasphemous publications against Allah (SWT) and His most honored prophet Muhammad (SAW) on your internet website, we, of the above mentioned international organization, have by the ruling of Allah's injunction in His Most Glorious Qur'an, chapter 02 verses 190-195, summarily declared and have vowed to carry out, the unfailing EXECUTION of the following persons irrespective of their real or fictitious names:

Mumin Salih, Sher Khan, Khalid Waleed, Imran Hossain, Faiyza Taffakur, Abul Kasem, Ali Sina and Ayesha Ahmed.

Wherever they may hide on this globe, their blood has now become lawful to spill for the immeasurable defamation of Almighty Allah (SWT) and the personality of the Rasuul (SAW) and the incalculable damage caused to the world muslims at large.

Our unfailing order will be carried out where and when it is least expected.

We therefore, urge the CONDEMNED people mentioned above to quickly inform their families and well wishers about this so as not to let such other people of theirs misconceive their about-to be deaths for some cause different.

REGIONAL CORDINATOR,
ALBARSHUMI ASSINAFI.
ATTERAWI. ZONAL OVERSEER,
ABU ZALAMAH

.....................

Follow this link to see it for yourselves.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina60209c.htm

--------------------
 -

IP: Logged
Thomas
IE # 19
Member # 101

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Thomas   Email Thomas         Edit/Delete Post 
WND MEDIA MATTERS
Arab paper published
cartoons 4 months ago
No outrage when Egyptian publication headlined drawings on Ramadan cover
Posted: February 9, 2006
1:00 a.m. Eastern


© 2006 WorldNetDaily.com


Muhammad cartoon on Egypt's al-Fagr newspaper cover in October 2005 (courtesy: Freedom for Egyptians)

While Muslims across the world have rioted in the past week against countries whose newspapers have published cartoons of the prophet Muhammad, there was no uproar when the same caricatures were prominently displayed in an Arab newspaper four months ago.

The images originating in Denmark's Jyllands-Posten in September were reportedly featured on the cover and inside pages of Egypt's al-Fagr (the Dawn) in October, during the holy month of Ramadan.

According to the Freedom for Egyptians blog, al-Fagr included the cartoons on the front cover and page 17 of its edition dated Oct. 17. The headline, when translated, is said to read: "Continued Boldness. Mocking the Prophet and his wife by Caricature."


Muhammad cartoons on page 17 of Egypt's al-Fagr newspaper in October 2005 (courtesy: Egyptian Sandmonkey blog)

"The Egyptian paper criticized the bad taste of the cartoons but it did not incite hatred protests," notes the blog. "It would have been better that this [current] holy war against Denmark be launched during the holy month of Ramadan as many Muslims believe that Jihad during Ramadan would have been more worthy. This irrelevant outrage timing is but a sign that this violent response to the cartoons is politically motivated by Muslim extremists in Europe and the so-called secular governments of the Middle East. I want also to mention that despite the fact that all editors who tried to reprint the cartoons in the Middle East nowadays were arrested, the Egyptian editors went unharmed."

To date, at least 10 people have been killed in Afghanistan alone from Muslim riots in connection with the cartoons, though protests have been taking place in many countries throughout Europe and the Mideast. Some 4,000 angry Muslims took to the streets of the Egyptian capital of Cairo this week, though there were no protests when al-Fagr published the images during Ramadan in October.

Interestingly, an Associated Press story in the Khaleej Times of the United Arab Emirates reports al-Fagr reprinted copies of the cartoons this week, but published only "the upper half of some of the controversial cartoons, omitting any facial representations. Adel Hamoudah, editor of al-Fagr, said he took copies of the cartoons from the Internet for the Tuesday edition and published them as a means of emphasizing their 'impudence.' He did not explain, however, why he chose only to print the upper half of the caricatures."

It's not clear if the paper even mentioned it previously published the entire images on its cover and interior in October.

"This tells me one thing, at least, and that is the Egyptians who get this newspaper and who took to the streets are either incredibly stupid, hypocritical, or both," said an anonymous poster on FFE's blog. "They are stupid because they believe what they're told by the Arab press in the previous week without checking for the facts. They are hypocritical if they protested the second time they saw the cartoons and not protested when it was first printed. Here, I'm going to go out on a limb and say 'both.'"

Meanwhile in the U.S., the AP, the largest news-gathering organization in the world, is being attacked by a California newspaper editor over the wire service's refusal to distribute the cartoons of Muhammad.

"But what is incredible is that the Associated Press, which distributes news stories and photos from across the globe, has decided that you shouldn't see it," writes editor Don Holland of the Daily Press in Victorville, Calif. "What is offensive is that AP fancies itself to be the guardian of good taste for thousands of American newspapers rather than letting individual newspapers make that decision."

 -

--------------------
-Tom

IP: Logged
Charles
Administrator
Member # 7

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Charles           Edit/Delete Post 
Here's the movie I was talking about before. The Message starring Anthony Quinn and Irene Pappas. Quinn plays the part of Mohammed's Uncle, Hamza. It was nominated for an Oscar in 1978 for Best Music Original Score.

 -

--------------------
 -

IP: Logged
SquarejawHero
IE # 188
Member # 2601

Icon 1 posted      Profile for SquarejawHero   Author's Homepage   Email SquarejawHero         Edit/Delete Post 
I don't see hate in Charles' words, I see someone attempting to understand all sides of a story. Which I can respect... although it might also be worth mentioning that Mohammed's first wife he stayed with until his death he worked for, and I believe he was suprised by her marriage proposal. She also convinced him that he wasn't mad when he had his initial vision and pushed him towards founding Islam. It's also worth mentioning that taking more than one wife when you cannot love them, or treat them, equally in Islam is a sin.

Anyhow, like Charles, I have a minor interest in the beliefs of others. I also have a girlfriend, who happens to be a Muslim and believes in the basics found in the teachings of the Koran. She doesn't directly interpret it the way these people we see rioting in the streets do, she looks at the fundamental underlying messages, something which she was taught to in Islamic school. She's tolerant and respectful of others, most of all myself as an agnostic - and she loves that I take an interest, even if she knows I will never believe. She also knows the Koran was a product of its time, an essential creation which enforced laws in a lawless land and, suprising to me on my discovery, the first text that actually gave women rights when they had none in the years preceding it.

It saddens her, as I, that many Imams have taken to preaching a perverted Islam which advocates hate above the love and understanding of others. That is intolerant to other religions. She hates that her religion has been hijacked in the media by people that she see's as not representing her, or her friends, or her family, as Muslims. That being a Muslim has effectively turned her into the "other", when she's equally as part of western culture as you or I.

She received a nice letter from her father recently, that I'd like all of you to read.

quote:
Hi Sayang,

I am happy that you are taking a more informed and enlightened view of things now.

The problem with the Muslim world is that for years and years the people have had their minds shuttered up by the so-called "ulamas". They have just been fed with doctrines - being told that the Prophet said this, the Prophet said that or God wants this, God wants that - without being allowed to question, debate or rationalise what is being taught or preached. I personally do not think that this is right - unless you can question, debate and test what is said to be the Truth, you can never arrive at the Truth. The Prophet himself went through this process, when he questioned all the beliefs and practices of the society that he was born into. Truth is a quest - a process of search and discovery, and the engine required to enable one to embark on this journey is an enquiring mind.

I agree that the response and reaction to the cartoons is a sad reflection of the state of intellectual bankruptcy of the Muslim societies and countries. So what if someone draws a cartoon of the Prophet? Is that the Prophet? It's just squiggles on a piece of paper. Can the holiness, spirituality and sanctity of the Prophet be affected or in any way diminished by the mere fact that someone drew a cartoon? Of course not! It's just like if some kindergarten kid were to draw a stick figure and claim that that is God. The kid draws the figure out of his own perception and his ignorance. But does that mean that God is insulted?

We create our own problems - when we can't think and can't use the power of reason and our minds. No wonder the western world looks down and laughs at the Muslims.

Love
Papa

She also got an email recently -

[quoteI've got an e-mail asking me to participate in boycotting Danish product. This is my response to the e-mail:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mira
No, sir. I refuse to participate in such action. I am a progressive Muslim, and I do not believe that boycotting the Danish products would resolve anything. As a matter of fact, I think it reflects poorly on the image of the Muslims today. It is a scandal, yes. Perhaps, the caricature of the good Prophet is offensive. But in my humble opinion, all these boycotting, rioting, burning down Danish flags and embassies are much more shameful than anything else.

Sincerely,
Mira[/quote]

--------------------
Bowendesign.com

IP: Logged
SquarejawHero
IE # 188
Member # 2601

Icon 1 posted      Profile for SquarejawHero   Author's Homepage   Email SquarejawHero         Edit/Delete Post 
If someone could edit those quote marks, it'd be appreciated.

RE that "freedom" site, it's worth remembering that the worst non-smokers are ex-smokers.

--------------------
Bowendesign.com

IP: Logged
AMID
IE # 43
Member # 289

Icon 1 posted      Profile for AMID   Email AMID         Edit/Delete Post 
Charles, that's a pretty crude attempt at personalizing the issue and making a wild assumption about my faith. You haven't the foggiest what my private beliefs are. The only thing I will say is that I have a strong belief in the validity of, and respect for, all faiths. That doesn't mean that I take it all seriously or that I don't have a sense of humor about religion, but I most certainly would never support a group that calls for the destruction of anybody's religion.

You can justify your postings any way you like Charles. None of it diminishes the fact that you've repeatedly linked to a hate site that very clearly promotes the eradication of a major world religion in its mission statement. Even after the intent of the site was made clear, you offered no retractions and maintain your support for its writings. Nobody is denying your right to promote hate and bigotry here—after all, this whole issue was originally about freedom of speech—but when the founder of a respectable message board like Animation Nation heavily promotes sites of this nature, it irreparably taints the credibility of the entire community.

I'd appreciate if you, or one of the moderators, could remove me permanently as a user from AN. It's the type of site that I no longer feel comfortable being associated with.

Respectfully,
Amid

"nothing changed. Mistake on the part of the Mod"

[ February 12, 2006, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: The Mod ]

IP: Logged
SquarejawHero
IE # 188
Member # 2601

Icon 1 posted      Profile for SquarejawHero   Author's Homepage   Email SquarejawHero         Edit/Delete Post 
Maybe I'm not reading something right, but a lot of what Charles says, minus that one site, seems to be balancing different things. At least he's taking a look at Islam beyond the portrayal that the extremists seem to have hijacked in the media, and that the media are concentrating on.

Personally, I'd like to see more research into the moderate viewpoint. They're simply not being heard enough, imo, even though they are speaking out. Denmark's Muslim practitioners are mainly towards the viewpoint that free speech and understanding is to be respected, for example. The Muslim Council of Britain denounced the protests as beyond reasonable in our country. But they're not being listened to by the media, so it's all become "us" versus "them"... it's easier in black and white.

That site Charles linked to I feel he should be very wary of. IMO it's not a stable or valid way of looking or reaching any conclusion about this situation - of course people who found problems with religion are going to be overly critical or bigoted towards it because of their experiences. You might as well look at Chick's Tracts as a source of info as you'll get just about as much out of it about religion... ie not much at all. Its impossible to know whether any of the stories are true and if any of those involved in the site have any hidden agenda.

RE the wife Charles mentioned, there are other sources that indicate she was much older - it depends which Hadith you read. It's far more complex than you made out, involving dating by word of mouth maybe even centuries after Aisha died. The only Muslims who seem to favour the early age theory (and it is that) are those who take things at face value, as in Shariam, and as you know it's all about how you translate the texts.

Modern Muslims look to the texts, as I said, as guidelines as well as rules and understand the age and historical situation of it. Maybe you need to do more reading? I'm happy you're researching, but you might need to look harder.

--------------------
Bowendesign.com

IP: Logged
blue eyes
Member
Member # 259

Icon 13 posted      Profile for blue eyes           Edit/Delete Post 
And there it is. A perfect example of the shape of the world we are in. Nice. [unimpressed]
IP: Logged
Fooksie
IE # 239
Member # 331

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Fooksie   Author's Homepage   Email Fooksie         Edit/Delete Post 
Hmm..instead of explaining why Charles is a hate filled racist, have a tantrum and storm out.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

--------------------
" Every move a picture! "
Buddy Love

IP: Logged
Greg B
IE # 118
Member # 886

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Greg B   Author's Homepage   Email Greg B         Edit/Delete Post 
As much as I may come to regret it, no, I won't regret it. Regret is a thing of the past.

Bottom line is the original point of this thread.

The responsibility and ramifications of freedom of speech.

If any of you have been professional editorial cartoonists, I've yet to see any post on this subject.

I did editorial cartoons for the Gannet News Service for almost 8 years. Ironically my first toon that landed me the job I did when I had just turned 19 during my second year in college and it was about the Iranian Hostage Crisis.

It was a touchy subject back then and as we can see even more so now. Yet I never would have stepped over the line and made light of the Prophet Muhammed. Why? Because I knew enough Americans of Islamic faith to know it would have started a global uproar.

Did the cartoonists who drew these new toons know it would end up like this? If they had known I doubt they would have. Yet in today's climate of hate and bigotry both overt and covert one never knows.

Social and commercial cartooning. Most of you work for companies that don't get political. Outside of the Simpsons and the other Fox toons and of course South Park, most companies are too frightened to touch hot button topics.

The cartoonists that lampooned the Prophet Muhammed unfortunately are going to have to look over their shoulders probably for the rest of their lives. Others too may well be the target of the retributions we've seen taking place.

How serious is the issue? Dead serious. Even Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice appeared on the Sunday news shows and in the press and her first order of business was to proclaim her alarm regarding the aftermath of these toons being published and the world climate of hostilities.

You know your toon is hot when the White House gets involved.

Editorial cartoons have been at the forefront of so many major political upheavals for the past 300 years it's a shame so many have forgotten. Remember if you will that our own Ben Franklin was a bit of a tooner himself. Toons helped win the Revolutionary, Civil, WWI, WWII wars as well as spotlighted the insanity of the Vietnam War.

Toons do make a difference because they're a powerful form of communication. People cognite from toons.

Charles, the website you linked to is definitely a hostile to Islam site. It's obvious from a simple glance. Amid's claims of racism were over the top yet I understand his frustration. This banter between you two is a mirror of the type of dialogue going on in houses of state worldwide.

I've been away from this board because I tired of the childish, hateful character attacks against myself, others and supporters of AN.

Yet this subject I cannot sidestep.

The news business is dangerous. Unlike most of you who sit in studios immersed in flights of fancy, in the news business you're surrounded by real bad guys. Death threats are common and being in harm's way, a way of life. I've lost many a comrade and still do. The casualty rate of news people during this latest Iraq/Afghanistan debacle is well documented.

So when you're on the sidelines and haven't been on the news room battlefront, perhaps just dropping any of the top news folks an email will enlighten you.

I was fortunate that at a young age to have been tutored by the best news people. Hard bit men and women who were on the front lines during WWI, WWII, Korean War and Vietnam. Not to mention news people who'd immigrated to the U.S. after having undergone horrid events such as genocide and disease.

When you wake up each day not knowing which mobster or political gangster is going to shoot or blow up something it keeps you on your toes. I even wrote a book about it in comics form back in the '80s that showed how in the future news companies would be like military camps with rank and combat personnel. Even had subplots regarding cloning and global terrorism.

I could see then where things would lead and I'm sorry to see them come to pass.

Charles, AN has done wonderful things for animation and the working man. Too bad too many don't appreciate it. We've seen the face of an entire industry change drastically due, from my viewpoint, from what was done on this board before it became a cause celeb to do so. I've been keeping up on the latest in the animation industry and I'm happy to see more hirings, real artists being elevated to executive positions and mergers and acquisitions in a positive direction. Things had to get bad before they got better and only time will tell if 2D alone will rise to it's previous heights.

That I attribute to what AN and it's allies have done. When no one was giving the industry press or tv or radio time, it was AN and it's allies that got that ball rolling.

Now in a world where technical miracles occur every day, it's madness that we humans cannot appreciate these marvels yet use any excuse to bicker and wreak havoc.

There are new water purification technologies that are cheap and resiliant. That means billions can now get clean water where before only fetid brews were their daily lot. Did anyone see how fast legendary Hawaiian singer Don Ho recovered from stem cell treatment allowed in Thailand? He was at death's door in early December and within less than a month was back on stage. Yet these miracles take a backseat to the chaos at world's end.

As for muslims in America, one has to recall that tens of millions of muslims built the colonies and the United States. The descendants of these Muslims suffered greatly yet persevered, even when they were forceably indoctrinated into Christianity. These Muslims for the most part are the African Americans who gained their freedom a century and a half ago. Many have returned to Islam. Many were Christian, Jew and a thousand other smaller religions before being transplanted in the new world.

I know of Muslim families who emigrated here during the 1800's and early 1900's. Land owners and engineers, artists, doctors etc. Many took the guise of being other ethnic groups in order to pass. One gentleman who became on of our greatest ship building engineers during WWII was Arabic/Muslim and pretended to be Italian for the longest time.

So let's not fall into the trap of generalizing all Muslims. Islam is like Judaism and Christianity and Buddhism. It's not your race, it's your faith that counts. Only in parts of Europe and the U.S. does race get twisted into the equation. I know Muslims that have the blondest hair and bluest eyes. Matter of fact I date a woman who is blonde, blue eyes and is 6ft 1 and of Islamic descent. Her family's been Islamic since who knows when.

Bottom line is responsibility and ramifications of being in the global eye and your works target the political/social agenda.

Where's it going to go from here? I can only imitate Yoda and say,

"Begun the Toon Wars have."

It's always a small part of any population that escalates things into destructive acts. The instigators of chaos and mayhem.

Those are the real enemies of humanity and unlike the movies, they're of all shapes colors etc.

Evil never takes a day off, that's why Good must start and take the day.

Adios.

--------------------
http://www.boonestoons.com
http://www.spacefool.com

IP: Logged
SquarejawHero
IE # 188
Member # 2601

Icon 1 posted      Profile for SquarejawHero   Author's Homepage   Email SquarejawHero         Edit/Delete Post 
Whilst I hear and applaud a lot of what you're saying, I feel you've made light of some of my own situation.

My girlfriend, who I love deeply, is a Malay Muslim living in Russia. In a student block attacked by nearly five hundred skinheads around two years ago. This situation, for me and not as an artist, has thrown me into a state. She can't leave Russia "in case" something like that happens again. But these Islamist extremists are making it hard for moderate Muslims to live their daily lives by hijacking the religions image as much as they have. And the media has a lot to blame for that image change.

--------------------
Bowendesign.com

IP: Logged
Greg B
IE # 118
Member # 886

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Greg B   Author's Homepage   Email Greg B         Edit/Delete Post 
SquareJaw, I am far from making light of this or your situation.

This is a deadly game.

The world hadn't seen the Muslim terrorists until the U.S. and Britain and the banking/oil barons invaded the middle east and carved their territories up. Then the creation of the State of Israel using people who weren't even descendents of the original Jews to do so. Add to that the half a millenia of the transatlantic slave trade in which tens of millions of Muslims, black, white and brown and yellow and you can see the hatred per history.

It's not isolated to the radical Islamists. Every ethnic group has it's own cadre of murderers and mayhemists.

When you've been in the real news business like I've been and gotten as old as I have you realize the magnitude and pervasiveness of this madness.

When I left the news business I couldn't get a job because I had been in journalism. Why? Wasn't because I didn't have a genius IQ or loads of talent. It was because every major company was into something criminal and wanted no one with ties to the press.

Just a glance at the animation industry's big wigs over the past decade can show you why.

Journalists live with the shadow of death and retribution for their entire lives. The only way you get by it is to look past it. These guys who drew those toons will have this hanging over their heads well past their natural deaths. Add to that the latest video of U.S. Troops beating Iraqi teenagers and this mess has gone from microwave to nuclear.

It's impossible for the Islamic community to weed out these evil doers because from within and without there are instigators. It's like the various ethnic Mafias. As long as they have your family's name in the old country you're hog tied to do their bidding.

Unfortunately the inability of the global Muslim community to thwart these fiends will soon spell their own doom. China, Russia, U.S. and many other countries have grown tired of it.

One day we may all well wake up and find a great deal of the population of Earth no longer with us.

Islam was almost destroyed by the Mongols. The Caliphate almost wiped out due to their arrogance. Yet something in Islam appealed to the Mongols and they adopted it and rebuilt it.

You're dealing with religious mentalities which means sanity is the last thing on the docket. The majority of Christians, Jews and Muslims, all who worship the same God, are of their faith through the use of force and coercion, not illumination.

Bush's 'Spooky Politics' may have well brought about the ultimate battle of faiths. Perhaps only the Buddhists will survive. They don't care anyhow as they know they'll come back.

--------------------
http://www.boonestoons.com
http://www.spacefool.com

IP: Logged
Ravenshoe
IE # 186
Member # 783

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Ravenshoe           Edit/Delete Post 
Hey Squarejaw - why don't you marry her and bring her to England as your wife? Seriously.

quote:
Then the creation of the State of Israel using people who weren't even descendents of the original Jews to do so.
Yeah. Right. They hired Italians.
IP: Logged
SquarejawHero
IE # 188
Member # 2601

Icon 1 posted      Profile for SquarejawHero   Author's Homepage   Email SquarejawHero         Edit/Delete Post 
Who says I won't? Seriously.

4 years left of study in Russia though. Medicine. Kinda sucks.

--------------------
Bowendesign.com

IP: Logged
Greg B
IE # 118
Member # 886

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Greg B   Author's Homepage   Email Greg B         Edit/Delete Post 
Quoteth Ravenshoe

quote:
Yeah. Right. They hired Italians.
Nope. The magic words for today are 'Khazar' and 'Ashkenazi'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi

--------------------
http://www.boonestoons.com
http://www.spacefool.com

IP: Logged
Ravenshoe
IE # 186
Member # 783

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Ravenshoe           Edit/Delete Post 
Greg, I've been following your scholarly study of UFO abduction stories. I'm glad to see you've applied the same stringent sources to your Middle East analysis. Keep up the good work. [Roll Eyes]
IP: Logged
Charles
Administrator
Member # 7

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Charles           Edit/Delete Post 
Folks, this is an important topic and I'd like to see it continue, so let's take a little break to get centered and we'll return to the subject soon.

--------------------
 -

IP: Logged
Charles
Administrator
Member # 7

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Charles           Edit/Delete Post 
I'd like to ask ANers to keep the following in mind.

Forensics: the art or study of argumentation and formal debate.

That's the dictionary definition of the term. That's what it's all about and what we're doing here. In a forensic debate, it's permissible to be impassioned about an issue as long as one can back their position with facts and reference. If you can't enter an exchange without losing your cool, then the thing to do is to stay off of the thread. Don't read it if you are sensitive and it offends those sensibilities.

Thanks and we'll be back with some updates about this very important topic soon.

--------------------
 -

IP: Logged
Charles
Administrator
Member # 7

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Charles           Edit/Delete Post 
Please bear with me as I attend to some maintenance on points that were previously brought up in the thread. This one in regards to the assertion that Ashkenazi Jews not originating from Semetic lands. Here's a recent news release on the topic that comes to a contrary conclusion based upon research involving mitochondrial DNA.

...............

Nearly Half of Ashkenazi Jews Descended From Four “Founding Mothers”

January 13, 2006

A Technion study has found that around 40 percent of Ashkenazi Jews are descended from just four “founding mothers” who lived in Europe 1,000 years ago.

HAIFA, Israel and NEW YORK (January 12, 2006) -- Some 3.5 million or 40 percent of Ashkenazi Jews are descended from just four “founding mothers” who lived in Europe 1,000 years ago. The mothers were part of a small group who founded the Ashkenazi Jewish community, which was established in Europe as a result of migration from the Near East.

The studies that led to these findings were performed by Dr. Doron Behar as part of his doctoral thesis, and were done under the supervision of Prof. Karl Skorecki of the Rappaport Faculty of Medicine and Research Institute at the Technion-Israel Institute of Technology, and at the Rambam Medical Center in Haifa. Prof. Skorecki is best known for his 1997 discovery of genetic evidence indicating that the majority of modern-day Jewish priests (Kohanim) are descendants of a single common male ancestor, consistent with the Biblical high priest, Aaron.

Researchers from other universities around the world contributed to the study, which was published online January 11 by the “American Journal of Human Genetics” and will appear in print in a forthcoming issue of the Journal.

The researchers’ conclusions are based on detailed comparative analysis of DNA sequence variation in the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) region of the human genome. mtDNA is transmitted to descendants by the mother only.

.........................

See the complete article at this link:

http://www.ats.org/news.php?id=134

Also:

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1548268.htm

--------------------
 -

IP: Logged
Charles
Administrator
Member # 7

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Charles           Edit/Delete Post 
I'm going to use this thread as a blog for the time being so that I can post content important to this issue without disruption.

Squarejaw, your girlfriend's father's comments were eloquent and did much more to sooth the situation than getting indignant and walking out in a huff.

Here's something that came my way from a follower of the topic. I'm posting it up by request. This is significant so I encourage all to read it with objectivity. The subject of the message is "The Investigative Project on Terrorism".

................

The Sunday Telegraph (London)
February 12, 2006

We were brought up to hate - and we do
By Nonie Darwish

The controversy regarding the Danish cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed completely misses the point. Of course, the cartoons are offensive to Muslims, but newspaper cartoons do not warrant the burning of buildings and the killing of innocent people. The cartoons did not cause the disease of hate that we are seeing in the Muslim world on our television screens at night - they are only a symptom of a far greater disease.

I was born and raised as a Muslim in Cairo, Egypt and in the Gaza Strip. In the 1950s, my father was sent by Egypt's President, Gamal Abdel Nasser, to head the Egyptian military intelligence in Gaza and the Sinai where he founded the Palestinian Fedayeen, or "armed resistance". They made cross-border attacks into Israel, killing 400 Israelis and wounding more than 900 others.

My father was killed as a result of the Fedayeen operations when I was eight years old. He was hailed by Nasser as a national hero and was considered a shaheed, or martyr. In his speech announcing the nationalisation of the Suez Canal, Nasser vowed that all of Egypt would take revenge for my father's death. My siblings and I were asked by Nasser: "Which one of you will avenge your father's death by killing Jews?" We looked at each other speechless, unable to answer.

In school in Gaza, I learned hate, vengeance and retaliation. Peace was never an option, as it was considered a sign of defeat and weakness. At school we sang songs with verses calling Jews "dogs" (in Arab culture, dogs are considered unclean).

Criticism and questioning were forbidden. When I did either of these, I was told: "Muslims cannot love the enemies of God, and those who do will get no mercy in hell." As a young woman, I visited a Christian friend in Cairo during Friday prayers, and we both heard the verbal attacks on Christians and Jews from the loudspeakers outside the mosque. They said: "May God destroy the infidels and the Jews, the enemies of God. We are not to befriend them or make treaties with them." We heard worshippers respond "Amen".

My friend looked scared; I was ashamed. That was when I first realised that something was very wrong in the way my religion was taught and practised. Sadly, the way I was raised was not unique. Hundreds of millions of other Muslims also have been raised with the same hatred of the West and Israel as a way to distract from the failings of their leaders. Things have not changed since I was a little girl in the 1950s.

Palestinian television extols terrorists, and textbooks still deny the existence of Israel. More than 300 Palestinians schools are named after shaheeds, including my father. Roads in both Egypt and Gaza still bear his name - as they do of other "martyrs". What sort of message does that send about the role of terrorists? That
they are heroes. Leaders who signed peace treaties, such as President Anwar Sadat, have been assassinated. Today, the Islamo-fascist president of Iran uses nuclear dreams, Holocaust denials and threats to "wipe Israel off the map" as a way to maintain control of his divided country.

Indeed, with Denmark set to assume the rotating presidency of the UN Security Council, the flames of the cartoon controversy have been fanned by Iran and Syria. This is critical since the International Atomic Energy Agency is expected to refer Iran to the Security Council and demand sanctions. At the same time, Syria is under scrutiny for its actions in Lebanon. Both Iran and Syria cynically want to embarrass the Danes to achieve their dangerous goals.

But the rallies and riots come from a public ripe with rage. From my childhood in Gaza until today, blaming Israel and the West has been an industry in the Muslim world. Whenever peace seemed attainable, Palestinian leaders found groups who would do everything to sabotage it. They allowed their people to be used as the front line of Arab jihad. Dictators in countries surrounding the Palestinians were only too happy to exploit the Palestinians as a diversion from problems in their own backyards. The only voice outside of government control in these areas has been the mosques, and these places of worship have been filled with talk of jihad.

Is it any surprise that after decades of indoctrination in a culture of hate, that people actually do hate? Arab society has created a system of relying on fear of a common enemy. It's a system that has brought them much-needed unity, cohesion and compliance in a region ravaged by tribal feuds, instability, violence, and selfish corruption. So Arab leaders blame Jews and Christians rather than provide good schools, roads, hospitals, housing, jobs, or hope to their people.

For 30 years I lived inside this war zone of oppressive dictatorships and police states. Citizens competed to appease and glorify their dictators, but they looked the other way when Muslims tortured and terrorised other Muslims. I witnessed honour killings of girls, oppression of women, female genital mutilation, polygamy
and its devastating effect on family relations. All of this is destroying the Muslim faith from within.

It's time for Arabs and Muslims to stand up for their families. We must stop allowing our leaders to use the West and Israel as an excuse to distract from their own failed leadership and their citizens' lack of freedoms. It's time to stop allowing Arab leaders to complain about cartoons while turning a blind eye to people who defame Islam by holding Korans in one hand while murdering innocent people with the other.

Muslims need jobs - not jihad. Apologies about cartoons will not solve the problems. What is needed is hope and not hate. Unless we recognise that the culture of hate is the true root of the riots surrounding this cartoon controversy, this violent overreaction will only be the start of a clash of civilisations that the world cannot bear.


. Nonie Darwish is a freelance writer and public speaker.

--------------------
 -

IP: Logged
Charles
Administrator
Member # 7

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Charles           Edit/Delete Post 
Still blogging the thread.

Islam is frequently referred to as a religion of peace. I wanted to take a comprehensive look at its history to see just how peaceful the roots of the religion are. I found this summary of the emergence of Islam from the time of Mohammed's birth to the Battle of Saragossa in Spain. A span of about 200 years.

Source: http://www.islamundressed.com/


570 – Birth of Muhammad in Mecca.

577 – Muhammad’s mother dies.

595 – Muhammad marries, starts to have children.

605 – Placement of Black Stone in Ka’aba.

610 – Mohammed, in a cave, hears an angel tell him that Allah is the only true God.

613 – Muhammad’s first public preaching of Islam at Mt. Hira. Gets few converts.

615 – Muslims persecuted by the Quraish.

619 – Marries Sau’da and Aisha.

620 – Institution of five daily prayers.

622 – Muhammad immigrates from Mecca to Medina, gets more converts.

623 – Battle of Waddan.

623 – Battle of Safwan.

623 – Battle of Dul-‘Ashir.

624 – Raids on caravans to fund the movement begin.

624 – Zakat becomes mandatory.

624 – Battle of Badr.

624 – Battle of Bani Salim.

624 – Battle of Eid-ul-Fitr & Zakat-ul-Fitr.

624 – Battle of Bani Qainuqa’.

624 – Battle of Sawiq.

624 – Battle of Ghatfan.

624 – Battle of Bahran.

625 – Battle of Uhud.

625 – Battle of Humra-ul-Asad.

625 – Battle of Banu Nudair.

625 – Battle of Dhatur-Riqa.

626 – Battle of Badru-Ukhra.

626 – Battle of Dumatul-Jandal.

626 – Battle of Banu Mustalaq Nikah.

627 – Battle of the Trench.

627 – Battle of Ahzab.

627 – Battle of Bani Quraiza.

627 – Battle of Bani Lahyan.

627 – Battle of Ghaiba.

627 – Battle of Khaibar.

628 – Muhammad signs treaty with Quarish. (The Al-Hudaybiyya agreement was signed for a period of 10 years, which became the time limit for any agreement with non-Muslims. The agreement was broken after 18 months when Muhammad’s army conquered Mecca)

630 – Muhammad conquers Mecca (Quarish).

630 – Battle of Hunsin.

630 – Battle of Tabuk.

632 – Muhammad dies. …The reign of the Caliphs begins.

632 – Abu-Bakr (Muhammad’s father-in-law) along with Umar, begin a military move to enforce Islam in Arabia.

633 – Battle at Oman.

633 – Battle at Hadramaut.

633 – Battle of Kazima.

633 – Battle of Walaja.

633 – Battle of Ulleis.

633 – Battle of Anbar.

634 – Battle of Basra.

634 – Battle of Damascus.

634 – Battle of Ajnadin.

634 – Death of Hadrat Abu Bakr. Hadrat Umar Farooq becomes the Caliph.

634 – Battle of Namaraq.

634 – Battle of Saqatia.

635 – Battle of Bridge.

635 – Battle of Buwaib.

635 – Conquest of Damascus.

635 – Battle of Fahl.

636 – Battle of Yermuk.

636 – Battle of Qadsiyia.

636 – Conquest of Madain.

637 – Battle of Jalula.

638 – Battle of Yarmouk.

638 – The Muslims defeat the Romans and enter Jerusalem.

638 – Conquest of Jazirah.

639 – Conquest of Khuizistan and movement into Egypt.

641 – Battle of Nihawand.

642 – Battle of Rayy in Persia.

643 – Conquest of Azarbaijan.

644 – Conquest of Fars.

644 – Conquest of Kharan.

644 – Umar is murdered. Othman becomes Caliph.

647 – Conquest of Cypress island.

644 – Uman dies, succeeded by Caliph Uthman.

648 – Byzantine campaign begins.

651 – Naval battle against Byzantines.

654 – Islam spreads into North Africa.

656 – Uthman is murdered. Ali becomes Caliph.

658 – Battle of Nahrawan.

659 – Conquest of Egypt.

661 – Ali is murdered.

662 – Egypt falls to Islam rule.

666 – Sicily is attacked by Muslims.

677 – Siege of Constantinople.

687 – Battle of Kufa.

691 – Battle of Deir ul Jaliq.

700 – Sufism takes root as a sect.

700 – Military campaigns in North Africa.

702 – Battle of Deir ul Jamira.

711 – Muslims invade Gibraltar.

711 – Conquest of Spain.

713 – Conquest of Multan.

716 – Invasion of Constantinople.

732 – Battle of Tours in France.

740 – Battle of the Nobles.

741 – Battle of Bagdoura in North Africa.

744 – Battle of Ain al Jurr.

746 – Battle of Rupar Thutha.

748 – Battle of Rayy.

749 – Battle of lsfahan.

749 – Battle of Nihawand.

750 – Battle of Zab.

772 – Battle of Janbi in North Africa.

777 – Battle of Saragossa in Spain.

--------------------
 -

IP: Logged
Charles
Administrator
Member # 7

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Charles           Edit/Delete Post 
Still bloggin the topic.

I took a look at the history of the spread of Islam in the post above and then realized something. The flag of Saudi Arabia, the land where it all started. Here it is to consider. A nice green backdrop with the text in Arabic stating "There is no god but God and Mohammed is the messenger of God."

Just beneath this text is a sword.

 -

--------------------
 -

IP: Logged



This topic is comprised of pages:  1  2  3 
 
Post New Topic  
Topic Closed  Topic Closed
Open Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | Animation Nation

Animation Nation © 1999-2012

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0