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» AnimationNation   » SideTopics   » Will certain cartoonist be targeted for death now. (Page 2)

 
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Author Topic: Will certain cartoonist be targeted for death now.
Jennifer Hachigian Jerrard
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A Christian Science Monitor report suggests that there's a deeper problem than the cartoons:

quote:
From Cartoon furor deepens divisions

...

The outrage has grown from a base of preexisting issues, including frustration over perceived discrimination against Muslims in Europe, say some experts.

"This is not about the cartoons themselves. There was a lot of tension between the West and Muslims because of Afghanistan, Iraq, and Palestine," says Mr. Shehadi. "This is just the spark that set it off."

...

The manner in which the protests were carried out around the Muslim world often reflected the prevailing political environment in each country. In the Gulf, the protests have been few and peaceful, with anger manifested in a boycott of Danish and Norwegian goods. But the protests have taken on a more violent edge in the increasingly lawless Gaza Strip.

In Syria, the tense struggle with the West - chiefly over Iraq and its support for alleged terrorist groups - shaped the rare outburst of violence in Damascus on Saturday.

...




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-FP-
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If you're interested, follow this ink:
What the media isn't telling you

Excerpt:
12 cartoons were published in the Danish newspaper Morgenavisen Jyllands-Posten, which you can see here. Some were very bland, others seem to be unquestionably offensive. Yet these cartons were published on September 30, 2005. What the traditional media has failed to explain is why the protests are occuring now.

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eboles
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I thought we didn't do politics here anymore. Let alone reproducing the material which is considered so objectionable that the BBC and most major newssources won't touch it.

But the reaction is insane. For one thing, it shows that some people have absolutely no understanding of irony. There was a banner that read "Down with freedom of speech!". Also consider how the most inflamatory cartoon is somewhat vindicated by the torching of the embassy and the various threats of violance.

One thing to bear in mind is that it is the more provocative banners and slogans that are getting the coverage. It would be better not to fan the flames of hatred and division. The main thing is that westerners will now know to be more sensitive to these feelings in future(in the same way that racist and anti-semetic material is avoided).

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eboles
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Mohammed's appearance on South Park fails to spark outcry
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gergley
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Here's something else that's crap.

web page

What the H---?

Why does any of this have to involve cartoons?

There is just so much wrong with this whole debacle. It is like there's a dumb guy realization going on that the pen is mightier than the sword...but, oh, yeah, bring the sword, too.

Ridiculous.


Please, please, please don't let any agitated religious groups see Dorkin's "Milk and Cheese" comics. They'll just take it the wrong way.

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Charles
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This isn't a political discussion, it's more along the lines of a socio-theological phenomenon of the most absurd sort based upon the reaction to newspaper cartoons. So if it appears to become political on this thread, it's the radical fundamentalist atheist left, the crowd that wants the 10 commandments out of court rooms and in God We Trust off our currency blaming the Radical Fundamentalist Christian Right who wants creation theory taught in public schools, for the way the Radical Fanatic Muslimist Theocrats are currently behaving who want to drench the soil of Europe with infidel blood.

Now that we've hit each corner let's continue with the topic rationally and try not to let personal belief or non-belief in god or God cloud your editorial perspective.

There is a way to better comprehend what is happening right now and that is to go to Islam class. How many people commenting in these many blogs and boards really understand the history and theology of Islam? Very very few I'd say.

From the behavior of the Muslims who are violently protesting the cartoons, they are the ones who need to get to class more than anyone else. These events have prompted me to brush up on my study of Islamic theology and as such, I've discovered it can easily be argued that everything they are doing is contrary to what Mohammed directed. They are comitting a grievous sin and are bringing shame against Islam. And therefore, according to their own interpretation of their own religious law, they must cut off their own heads.

I'll be happy to explain this and other truly fascinating aspects of Mohammed and Islam with all due respect of course.

If the War on Terror and Ignorance is going to be fought and won, then there has to be an understanding of Islam among us infidels. Our greatest weapon is education. Without it, we are truly at a loss to intellectually confront this, if an intellectual confrontation is possible that is.

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Charles
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Aw, man! If we can't laugh at this kind of stuff then life ain't worth living.

From the link Gergley provided above.

Maybe this is how wars will be fought in the future. Cartoonists facing each other on the front lines of a major world wide conflict, the fate of nations depending on who can come up with the most culturally insulting graphics and offensive captions.

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Iran to publish Holocaust cartoons

From: Agence France-Presse From correspondents in Tehran

February 07, 2006

IRAN'S largest selling newspaper announced today it was holding a contest on cartoons of the Holocaust in response to the publishing in European papers of caricatures of the Prophet Mohammed.

"It will be an international cartoon contest about the Holocaust," said Farid Mortazavi, the graphics editor for Hamshahri newspaper - which is published by Teheran's conservative municipality.
He said the plan was to turn the tables on the assertion that newspapers can print offensive material in the name of freedom of expression.

"The Western papers printed these sacrilegious cartoons on the pretext of freedom of expression, so let's see if they mean what they say and also print these Holocaust cartoons," he said.

Iran's fiercely anti-Israeli regime is supportive of so-called Holocaust revisionist historians, who maintain the systematic slaughter by the Nazis of mainland Europe's Jews as well as other groups during World War II has been either invented or exaggerated.

Iran's hardline President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad prompted international anger when he dismissed the systematic slaughter by the Nazis of mainland Europe's Jews as a "myth" used to justify the creation of Israel.

Mr Mortazavi said tomorrow's edition of the paper will invite cartoonists to enter the competition, with "private individuals" offering gold coins to the best 12 artists - the same number of cartoons that appeared in the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten.

Last week, the Iranian foreign ministry also invited British Prime Minister Tony Blair to Teheran to take part in a planned conference on the Holocaust, even though the idea has been branded by Mr Blair as "shocking, ridiculous, stupid".

Mr Blair also said Mr Ahmadinejad "should come and see the evidence of the Holocaust himself in the countries of Europe", to which Iran responded by saying it was willing to send a team of "independent investigators".

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Charles
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This is from an article directing the new Muslim convert towards the proper way of Islam.

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Caution For New Muslims

Dangers of Excess and Extremism among Muslims
By Imam Ghayth Nur Kashif

Allah says in the Quran, "Thus we have made of you an ummah justly balanced, that you might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over you. (HQ 2:143) The Prophet (saaw) reportedly said, "Beware of excessiveness in religion before you have perished as a result of such excessiveness in religion. (Reported by Ah-mad). Allah states in the Quran that He, "Intends every facility for you; He does not want to put you in difficulties". (HQ 2:185)

"Religion," the Prophet is reported to have said, "is very easy, and whoever overburdens himself will not be able to continue in that way. Be right (without excessiveness or negligence), near (perfection, and have good timing (in being rewarded for your regular deeds)."(Bukhari)


The people of the Book (Christians and Jews) were warned: " O people of the Book, commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of Allah anything but the Truth...." 4:171. He warns the Muslims likewise: " O you who believe! Make not unlawful the good things, which Allah has made lawful for you, and commit no excess; for Allah loves not those given to excess. (HQ 5:87)

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Charles
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This is from the same Imam (religious teacher) as above.

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DISTORTIONS OF AHADITH (Teachings or traditions, I think. c)

Allah forbid that they should invoke His Name or the name of the Prophet as "partners" in their mutual disputes and violence. These are "inventions against Allah's Name." Just as the early pagans and their partners acted, making "alluring the slaughter of their children in order to lead them to their own destruction and cause confusion in their religion." Allah warned them that "He will requite them for their invention." (HQ: 5:137-8)

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Charles
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The thought is too funny not to share.

The Iran Free Press Holocaust International Cartoon Contest.

What a hoot if the winner turned out to be a Jew.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,18066746-1702,00.html?from=rss

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Dan P.
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As if it wasn't already getting out of hand:

KABUL, Afghanistan - NATO peacekeepers exchanged gunfire with protesters who attacked their base Tuesday in another day of deadly demonstrations in Afghanistan over the publication of caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad, officials said. Three demonstrators were killed. In neighboring Pakistan, 5,000 people chanting "Hang the man who insulted the prophet!" burned effigies of Denmark's prime minister and a cartoonist. Denmark Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen called the protests "a growing global crisis" and appealed for calm. The Danish paper Jyllands-Posten was the first to publish the drawings, in September.

Full article

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OFFBEAT
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Hey... the prize for that cartoon contest is two gold coins (worth $140 us)

hmmmmm... [Wink]

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"Get Rich, or Die Drawing!"

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Thomas
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We'll Take That as a 'Yes'

"They want to test our feelings. They want to know whether Muslims are extremists or not. Death to them and to their newspapers."--"protester" Mawli Abdul Qahar Abu Israra in Afghanistan, quoted by the BBC, Feb. 6

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Fooksie
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Morons. These are among the same sort of thugs who looted in South Central, using Rodney King as an excuse to get a big screen tv. Just a bunch of dopes looking for a fight.
These riots have nothing to do with Islam.
As someone who draws for a living, I admire the newspapers who had the courage to print the cartoons.
Here in America you can have a " Piss Christ " in an exhibit, or if you'd rather, a Virgin Mary in elephant dung.
Offensive, yes. But nobody was even suggesting that those artists should be beaten, maimed, or killed.

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" Every move a picture! "
Buddy Love

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q
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I saw an op ed cartoon I like...
a pencil, man size,
encircled by a mob that was throwing stones at
the pencil.

Where are the articulate voices to explain why the muslim faith does not allow images of Mohhamed?

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"Thank you. And bring it on."

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Charles
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That's a good point, Fooksie. Those images you mentioned were extremely offensive to Christians, and to many people who weren't Christian as well, yet no one was calling for the blood of the artists.

Also in Islam, no prophets are to be represented as images, that includes both Jesus who is a prophet according to the Muslim faith and his mother Mary, whom they call Miriam, and who has a book in the Koran in her name. A true Muslim should have been as outraged over this as they are with the Mohammed cartoons. Another theological hypocrisy on their part.

People have died in the protests over the Mohammed cartoons. The artists are in hiding for their lives. The behavior of the fascist Muslims is an embarrassment to humanity.

So what can be done about it? Let's go to Islam school and see.

Did you know that Mohammed made predictions about the future? Some of what he predicted as signs of the coming of the Day of Judgement include the following.

Bedhouin Arabs no longer dwelling in tents but erecting tall buildings to live in.

Mosques would no longer be simple, humble structures but large, elaborate and full of fanciful things like domes of gold.

This one is certainly worth contemplating. Muslims will one day play musical instruments.

According to these prophesies attributed to Mohammed, the Day of Judgement is near and the ones who will be cooking the hottest will be Muslims themselves.

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Charles
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These guys are screaming for apologies.

The Taliban in Afghanistan in the 90s destroyed gigantic, ancient cliffside sculptures of the Buddha. Remember that? Incredible marvels, works of astounding art. So where's Islam's apology to Buddhists?

Remember the images of Muslims dancing in the streets the day of 9-11? Where's our apology for that?

The only thing that matters to these deluted souls is themselves. Always the victim, never the culprit.

What's happening with the Mohammed cartoons is that for the first time, radical Islam is forced to look into a mirror and it hates what it sees so they blame the infidel mirror maker for it. They equate their discomfort with the same level of outrage as any normal person would experience in the face of a godless act like the 9-11 attacks or the 4184 deadly acts of Islamic terror since then worldwide.

It's gotten so bad, so much respect has been lost by the rest of the world for the Islamic faith that its fallen to the level of these unflattering editorial cartoons, and still they don't get it. They refuse to open their eyes and take a good long look in the mirror. They refuse to accept any notion that perhaps their religion is in dire need of reform. Like the western Christian church and its Inquisition, so too Islam faces a similar reckoning.

Reform, repent, return to Allah.

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Charles
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More Islam school.

This is something else I discovered while studying Islam recently. It has to do with the Shia / Sunni conflicts.

There are four schools of thought in Islam, comparable to the denominations of the Christian Church, Judaism and about every other religion. Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox for example.

In Islam, these factions began soon after Mohammed's death and the right of succession of the caliph was disputed. That's when the Sunni and Shia denominations were formed.

Here's a Fatwa (religious edict) from 1959 from a highly regarded Muslim cleric who addressed the point of the unity of Islam and declared that the four schools of thought were compatible with each other. Therefore, it is acceptable for Muslims to move freely between each of these schools of thought.

In other words, when it comes to the different denominations in Islam, it's all good. Think about that the next time you hear of a Sunni suicide bomber blowing themselves up in a crowd of Shias or in or near a Shia mosque, or vice versa.

..............

From www.islamtoday.com

Al-Azhar Verdict on the Shia

What follows is the Fatwa (religious verdict/ruling) of one of the Sunni world's most revered scholars, Sheikh Mahmood Shaltoot with regard to the Shia. Shaikh Shaltoot was the head of the renowned al-Azhar Theological school in Egypt, one of the main centers of Sunni scholarship in the world. It should be of interest to know that a few decades ago, a group of Sunni and Shia scholars formed a center at al-Azhar by the name of "Dar al-Taqreeb al-Madhahib al-Islamiyyah" which translates into "Center for bringing together the various Islamic schools of thought". The aim of the effort, as the name of the center indicates, was to bridge the gap between the various schools of thought, and bring about a mutual respect, understanding and appreciation of each school's contributions to the development of Islamic Jurisprudence, among the scholars of the different schools, so that they may in turn guide their followers toward the ultimate goal of unity, and of clinging to one rope, as the well-known Quranic verse, "Hold fast to the Rope of Allah and do not diverge" clearly demands of Muslims.

This massive effort finally bore its major fruit when Sheikh Shaltoot made the declaration whose translation is appended below. It should be made unequivocally clear as well, that al-Azhar's official position, vis a vis the propriety of following any of the Madhaahib (schools of law), including the Shi'ite Imami school, has remained unchanged since Shaikh Shaltoot's declaration.


Fatwa (ruling) of Shaikh Mahmood Shaltoot

Head Office of al-Azhar University:

IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, THE BENEFICENT, THE MERCIFUL Text of the Verdict (Fatwa) Issued by His Excellency Shaikh al-Akbar Mahmood Shaltoot, Head of the al-Azhar University, on Permissibility of Following "al-Shia al-Imamiyyah" School of Thought

His Excellency was asked:

Some believe that, for a Muslim to have religiously correct worship and dealing, it is necessary to follow one of the four known schools of thought, whereas, "al-Shia al-Imamiyyah" school of thought is not one of them nor "al-Shia al-Zaidiyyah." Do your Excellency agree with this opinion, and prohibit following "al-Shia al-Imamiyyah al-Ithna Ashariyyah" school of thought, for example?

His Excellency replied:

1) Islam does not require a Muslim to follow a particular Madh'hab (school of thought). Rather, we say: every Muslim has the right to follow one of the schools of thought which has been correctly narrated and its verdicts have been compiled in its books. And, everyone who is following such Madhahib [schools of thought] can transfer to another school, and there shall be no crime on him for doing so.

2) The Ja'fari school of thought, which is also known as "al-Shia al- Imamiyyah al-Ithna Ashariyyah" (i.e., The Twelve Imami Shi'ites) is a school of thought that is religiously correct to follow in worship as are other Sunni schools of thought. Muslims must know this, and ought to refrain from unjust prejudice to any particular school of thought, since the religion of Allah and His Divine Law (Shari'ah) was never restricted to a particular school of thought. Their jurists (Mujtahidoon) are accepted by Almighty Allah, and it is permissible to the "non-Mujtahid" to follow them and to accord with their teaching whether in worship (Ibadaat) or transactions (Mu'amilaat).

Signed, Mahmood Shaltoot.

The above Fatwa was announced on July 6, 1959 from the Head of al-Azhar University, and was subsequently published in many publications in the Middle East which include, but are not limited to:

al-Sha'ab newspaper (Egypt), issue of July 7, 1959. al-Kifah newspaper (Lebanon), issue of July 8, 1959.

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StephG
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So Iran is pissed off at Europeans, and in their desire to outrage everyone who do they pick on? The Jews. Whom I haven't heard having anything to do with this controversy.

But Jews are pretty much used to being picked on. Especially by extremist leaders of militant Muslim countries.

It's like...they badmouth the Jews all the time. Their hate speech has already been discounted, so adding cartoons wouldn't be much different from business as usual for them. They already publish anti-Jewish cartoons all the time, at least from what I've seen.

And you know what? You aren't going to see rioting Jews threatening embassies. Though you might see them bombing nuclear facilities in Iran, but whether or not that happens would be independent of the cartoons or other ridiculous statements the Iranian leadership makes.

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Charles
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Here ya go, Steph. Read this.

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Cartoon Saga: Can Prophet Muhammad Command Unqualified Respect from the Westerners?

By M. A. Khan

Feb 7 '06

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/MAKhan60207.htm

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Charles
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And this...

...............

Muslim Outrage

by David Davis

February 7 '06

Admit, this turban/bomb thing could be the next big fashion hit on the Muslim street!

Muslim outrage huh. OK ... let's do a little historical review. Just some lowlights:

Muslims fly commercial airliners into buildings in New York City. No Muslim outrage.

Muslim officials block the exit where school girls are trying to escape a burning building because their faces were exposed. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims cut off the heads of three teenaged girls on their way to school in Indonesia. A Christian school. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims murder teachers trying to teach Muslim children in Iraq. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims murder over 80 tourists with car bombs outside cafes and hotels in Egypt. No Muslim outrage.

A Muslim attacks a missionary children's school in India. Kills six. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims slaughter hundreds of children and teachers in Beslan , Russia. Muslims shoot children in the back. No Muslim outrage.

Let's go way back. Muslims kidnap and kill athletes at the Munich Summer Olympics. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims fire rocket-propelled grenades into schools full of children in Israel. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims murder more than 50 commuters in attacks on London subways and busses. Over 700 are injured. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims massacre dozens of innocents at a Passover Seder. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims murder innocent vacationers in Bali. No Muslim outrage.

Muslim newspapers publish anti-Semitic cartoons. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims are involved, on one side or the other, in almost every one of the 125+ shooting wars around the world. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims beat the charred bodies of Western civilians with their shoes, then hang them from a bridge. No Muslim outrage.

Newspapers in Denmark and Norway publish cartoons depicting Mohammed. Muslims are outraged.

Dead children. Dead tourists. Dead teachers. Dead doctors and nurses. Death, destruction and mayhem around the world at the hands of Muslims .. no Muslim outrage ... but publish a cartoon depicting Mohammed with a bomb in his turban and all hell breaks loose.

Come on, is this really about cartoons? They're rampaging and burning flags. They're looking for Europeans to kidnap. They're threatening innkeepers and generally raising holy Muslim hell not because of any outrage over a cartoon. They're outraged because it is part of the Islamic jihadist culture to be outraged. You don't really need a reason. You just need an excuse. Wandering around, destroying property, murdering children, firing guns into the air and feigning outrage over the slightest perceived insult is to a jihadist what tailgating is to a Steeler's fan.

I know and understand that these bloodthirsty murderers do not represent the majority of the world's Muslims. When, though, do they become outraged? When do they take to the streets to express their outrage at the radicals who are making their religion the object of worldwide hatred and ridicule? Islamic writer Salman Rushdie wrote of these silent Muslims in a New York Times article three years ago. "As their ancient, deeply civilized culture of love, art and philosophical reflection is hijacked by paranoiacs, racists, liars, male supremacists, tyrants, fanatics and violence junkies, why are they not screaming?"

Indeed. Why not?

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/DavidDavis60207.htm

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Charles
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One more...

True Islam Unmasked
By Barbara J. Stock

2006/02/08

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/BarbaraStock60208.htm

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AMID
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Charles - It's sad to see a valuable message board about the animation industry turned into a forum for your intolerant and racist views about religion and politics. Your backwoods us-vs.-them mentality about a subject you clearly do not understand makes you look foolish, and linking to hateful propaganda sites exposes a shameful side of you that I'm sure many of us would have preferred to not known about. Being from the Midwest, I've met my fair share of folks like yourself so it's no big deal to me personally. But what saddens me is that a once-respectable forum like AnimationNation has now become a cheap vehicle for spreading hate and ignorance.

Peace,
Amid

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Ravenshoe
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I have to agree with Amid. This discussion is not what AnimationNation is about. The vilification of any race or religion has no place in this forum. We should be above this.
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Fooksie
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This topic is valid because it concerns CARTOONS .
Apparently some people seem to be fine with the riots over these cartoons.
Don't express rage at the THUGS threatening fellow artists. Get mad at Charles.


[Roll Eyes]

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" Every move a picture! "
Buddy Love

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Ravenshoe
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This discussion started out about cartoons and evolved into something else.

I have no problem with dealing with the THUGS in the harshest possible terms. Make no mistake about that. But I do have a problem with blaming ALL Muslims for what is going on in Europe and the Middle East.

The lady in the flowershop. The Bank Manager. The guy in the post production house I use - these are all people just doing their jobs, living their lives -- reacting is as much disgust and horror as the rest of us. We can't tar everyone with the same brush.

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Thomas
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Well Amid, I was wondering when you would show up. It also sort of surprises me that instead of condemning the worldwide attacks/riots/killings/kidnappings by Muslims against those they perceive to have slighted them by making a few marks on Bristol board, you insist on bashing Charles. For doing no less than pointing out what is currently happening, why those groups are doing what they do, and for condemning those actions.

You can count me as one of those intolerant @$$’s. Since I have no patience with those bloodthirsty thugs who continue to act in the manner that they portray across Europe & the Middle East.

You can count me intolerant, since it has become an Us vs. Them situation, that has been enacted by the Muslims in those areas, calling for the death of artists, & of freedom.

You can count me as intolerant, since I have a dim view of such peoples destroying works of art, both ancient and modern, since they don’t fit with their religious/world views.

I also have a poor attitude towards those whom try to shame others for have such beliefs as these. I would also be grateful if you could explain how one could be racist to a religion that encompasses all shades of skin color. Or does Charles just hate everyone?

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-Tom

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pud
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How bout them maple leafs. When does Lindros get back ?
maybe this 2 week break while Canada wins gold will let them get healthy and refocus.

... oh ... wait... sorry...wrong thread.... back to the hate and stuff.....

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" Your Scenes are there forever." - Ollie Johnston
http://markpudleiner.blogspot.com/

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Rupert Piston
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An article in last week's New Yorker makes some interesting comparisons between racial profiling, which NYPD has a policy against, and the outlawing of pit bulls in different place. I'm not trying to connect Muslims to dogs here...

It goes back and forth between the two and winds up talking about generalizing, then ends with the disturbing sentence "It’s always easier just to ban the breed."

It's worth a read... And even though the comparison is disturbing, it doesn't really lean a particular direction.

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Thomas
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Seriously, what the heck did that have to do with the topic at hand?

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-Tom

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Fooksie
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Well, the New Yorker does have cartoons.... [Roll Eyes]

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" Every move a picture! "
Buddy Love

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OFFBEAT
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How can this be considered racism when we're discussing a religion/mindset?

I didn't know that Religion only allowed a certain race to practice.

...THAT would seems racist to me.

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OFFBEAT
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.. and going back reading what Charles posted.. I don't see anything other than historical facts and news articles being presented.

If you are getting "hate and ignorance" out of what is posted, than perhaps it's because these people are doing hateful and ignorant things.
[tipsy]

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gergley
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(After looking for a link while trying finish this post, I ran across a blog entry that explains itself better than I have below.Jim Borgman of the Cincy Enquirer. Bonus, it has prelim sketches of a cartoon and the finished cartoon.)


I'm just not too happy that on one hand editorial cartoons can be seen as powerful and then on the other hand editorial cartoons are a reason to wreak havoc and/or are a really good propoganda tool.

Editorial cartoons should be about calling out things that have happened as being wrong. Pointing out bad occurances/developments simply.

It is probably fair to say that the people who are rioting are just being played--coaxed into acting violently-- by the existance of cartoons.

That's where this isn't like the L.A. riots of '92. Those happened immediately after an event. Passions overflowed.

What is happening now has something which has been simmering. There was a looong period of unrelated rioting in France last Fall. And, since and because of the publication of the initial cartoons, lit matches have been flung around to get people riled up. That's just not right. Violence isn't a solution because it only causes more problems.

If, if that story I linked to above about Iranian newspaper is true--and, I'm second-guessing my belief that it is*-- then that newspaper is trying to use ed. cartoons to just anger even more people, for propoganda purposes. There's nothing good about that.

I can totally understand that people with strong beliefs can be easily offended. But, what is going on now is just making things worse. And, with all of the problems in the world these days, why make things worse?

With the passing last week of a great civil rights leader, we should all be lucky and happy if someone steps up and assumes a similar role to communicate to the people who are rioting.


* I really don't want it to be true. heck, the very story itself could be more propoganda as far as I know.

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Fooksie
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Charles Philipon drew King Louis Phillipe as a pear.
He was taken to court, and proved to the judges that with only four steps, the King could be rendered as a piece of fruit.
Thomas Nast helped to bring down Boss Tweed and the Tamany Hall machine with his caricatures.
People found themselves laughing at figures that they had been in fear of.
My point is that the artist has always been a strong force of change.

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" Every move a picture! "
Buddy Love

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Charles
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Tell ya what, Amid. You find one place within this topic from any word or words that I've written and posted which are racist in nature and I'll convert to Islam. Not only that, I'll return to reading your commentaries whenever I go to your website.

So tell me, fellow Midwesterner, was Roy Disney's investment in the Harlem Globetrotters last summer a racist thing? You sure made it seem that way. Ain't no racist here but you, my man.

And also to you, I say Salam Aleikhum, Peace be upon you and may Allah have mercy on those who profess the murder of innocent people in His name.

Let's all get back to Islam school.

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gergley
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quote:
Charles Philipon drew King Louis Phillipe as a pear.
He was taken to court, and proved to the judges that with only four steps, the King could be rendered as a piece of fruit.
Thomas Nast helped to bring down Boss Tweed and the Tamany Hall machine with his caricatures.
People found themselves laughing at figures that they had been in fear of.
My point is that the artist has always been a strong force of change.

If that was a direct or indirect response to what I wrote, allow me to address it.

I totally realize and recognize the points you made.

An editorial cartoonist as an individual can call out others --be they individuals, groups or institutions --that behave badly. It is when ed. cartoons comes darn close or sits atop propoganda when it isn't proper.

I haven't seen all of the questionable, controversial cartoons so I'm unaware if any or some directly and eloquently call out the more extreme actors for their actions in general. The cartoon reproduced at the beginning of this thread is the only one which I'm familiar with. And, quite honestly, I would not have thought it was a drawing of a prophet had it not been explained as being one.

And, if there is a notion of editorial cartoonists being nothing more than useful tools to relay propaganda* then nothing good is gained. In fact, for a publisher to embrace that narrow notion strikes at the heart of the notion of a free press.


Now, I'm unfamiliar with an extremely detailed explanation as to why the cartoons were published by the Danish mag. in the first place. From what I've read and heard there was a want to do it because it wasn't supposed to be done. Because a children's book author couldn't find an illustrator for a book on that prophet, the 12 cartoonists were commissioned to make ed. cartoons featuring the prophet.

As artistic expression goes, great. As press freedom goes, great. It would be grand if publication of such images would NOT provoke overreaction; if publication could be taken in stride by even those offended by them. Obviously, somethings are still more taboo than others. If the Danish mag. considered potential consequences prior to publication then why push the envelope that far?

In art you can break things down by deconstructing things. There's nothing wrong with that**. But, if art that is made is going to lead to life imitating art and *physical* deconstruction occurring then how is the art worth showing? It truly borders on using the expression to further politicize an issue instead of de-politicizing an issue or pointing out the absurdity and contradictory nature of the issue.

I don't think that subtle artistic expression is the best way to try and turn a tide. Direct, constructive dialogues, yes. Non-violent protest, for sure. Crafting something which can be deemed insulting, no.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm all for Lenny Bruce's ideas on removing taboos from taboos by broaching it to remove hatefulness from the taboos. Reinventing the language like that often just happens anyhow but making something less offensive by scraping the taboo nature often works. In language, it works. In ideas, it takes longer. With religion, whew, maybe unitarians have a good sense of humor about their religion, dunno for sure. But, most religions, sheesh, ya just can't make fun of them without offending the ones willing to most vocally respond.

So, unlike cartoon criticism of politicians and politics or even actions of churches or officers of churches (the priest scandals, for instance), this entire thing was on shaky legs from the beginning.

(And as for C. Philipon drawing a king as a pear...on some level I knew that. Not long ago, I guess I subconsciously rendered a dumber than dirt cartoon king as pear shaped design. Thanks for reminding me of it. To think thought I made the character pear-shaped because it is a funny, freudian shape and was because there are no pear pies...If this parathetical makes no sense, in a non-sequitor way, sorry.)


*if I'm constantly mis-spelling that, sorry. I don't like the word.

**it is great to do that.

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Charles
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Stick to the topic, guys. You're over analyzing.

It comes down to this. Radical Muslims just don't have a sense of humor.

I made a mistake earlier in our Islam lessons. I stated that the only miracle attributed to Mohammed was his night flight to Heaven from the temple mount in Jerusalem while he was in Arabia. There is a collection of other things he did which were considered miraculous and were recorded in a supplemental body of literature called the Hadith.

One other miracle for example, is when Mohammed used a different location than under the shade of a palm tree he was accustomed to using for his preaching. When he went someplace else, the tree lamented and cried. Mohammed then went back to the tree and gave it comfort. He continued to preach from the shade of that tree.

So did this actually happen? How in the world would I or anyone else know. It all comes down to a matter of faith. But look at the allegory of it. If you look to the allegory, or the metaphor of religious stories, you gain a broader understanding of what the parable is trying to convey.

Nature itself is something that is to be nourished and appreciated. Trees are special, especially in a land that has almost none of them. That's what a desert is by the way. Void of trees. But like St. Francis with animals, here's Mohammed attending to the feelings of trees. The first, quantifiable tree hugger.

It is therefore a requisite of Muslims to honor and respect trees, as it is of Christians and Jews and all mankind. When you show love for Allah's creations, you show your love for Allah.

So please stop hanging women from them as punishment for being caught in public with a man who is not her husband or close relative.

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Tobias A. Wolf
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Although I still believe that the legs of this uproar lie way deeper than a cartoon, it's still phenomenal how much power drawing as a medium still holds.

It's remarkably beautiful and terrifying at the same time. All of our most amazing and horrific ideas come from this ability. After all what is written language, outside of drawn pictures of letters to represent words and ideas. Or mathematical notation, musical notation, etc.

It's all so easy to forget, and take for granted, but the ability to draw made us what we are, and even, what we are not yet.

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OFFBEAT
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These cartoons aaaand the LA riots... passions getting out of hand..

Just because something pisses you off, and makes you angry.. it doesn't give you free reign to commit crimes.

There isn't a judge in the world that will let you off because someone or something made you angry.

I get angry and offended whenever there is a long line at the bank.. doesn't mean I can rob the place, or cut off the heads of everyone ahead of me.

There is NO justification for how they are reacting to those cartoons. ABSOLUTELY NONE.

[text]

[ February 09, 2006, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: Mod Too ]

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