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Author Topic: STAY OUT OF SCHOOL
Reg Hartt
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Posted by papercut (Member # 161) on November 16, 2005 08:42 AM :

The article is talking about the secondary school system, which is very different from post-secondary education. Just as the education received from a Technical College is quite different than a University education.

As with any thing in life, the quality of the experience is dependent on the quality of the individuals involved. Good teachers in the post-secondary system have a passion for animation, stay informed, and have developed the skills needed to communicate that knowledge in a teaching style that will match a student's learning style.

("School is an institutiuon built on the axiom that learning is the result of teaching. Institutional wisdom continues to accept this axiom, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary."--Ivan Illich. (http://www.cogsci.ed.ac.uk/~ira/illich/)--Reg Hartt)


The work environment is not a learning environment.The purpose of a work environment is to generate wealth. That means everyone there main concern is putting food on their table, or a Porche in their driveway. It's not about what they can do for you, it's about what you can do for them.

(It is always about what others can do for us. That is why an employer hires and an employee seeks work. There is nothing wrong with that.

The big difference between the employer and the employee is that the employer is working without a guarantee. S/he is the one taking the risk. If they want a Porsche, well, they deserve a Porsche. The word wealth means “well being.” To you it seems to mean money.–Reg)

I don't have time to finish this post right now, maybe later ...


[The thread is ancient. Please start a new one to discuss topic.]

[ November 16, 2005, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: Mod Too ]
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STAY OUT OF SCHOOL

Several years ago a young man asked what I thought to be the best course to follow in building an animation career.

“Stay out of animation schools. Go out and find a studio that is hiring and will train people on the job. Earn while you learn. Your job credit is worth way more than a diploma.”

He left.

Later that day he returned. “I got a job,” he told me.

“Where?” I asked. “That is one of the best places in the world you could go,” I said when told where he had gone.

Later that week I met his boss. I said, “I had a young man who asked me what I thought is the best course to follow to build a career in animation. I told him to stay out of school, find a studio that was hiring, would train people on the job and earn while he learned.”

“That was excellent advice,” said his boss.

“He took it. He got a job at the best place in town,” I told him.

“Where’s that?”

“Your place,” I told him.

“Who was it?” he asked.

I told him.

“That guy is really good,” he replied.

That young man has built a very good career for himself.

I am not alone on this. Read below.

"The aim of public education is not to fill the young of the species with knowledge and awaken their intelligence. ... Nothing could be further from the truth. The aim ... is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality. That is its aim in the United States... and that is its aim everywhere else."--H. L. Mencken, The American Mercury, April, 1924.

"Most teachers would say you should go to school to get your degree to have something to fall back on. Aside from being a huge lie, it also creates a very high level of mediocroity, because nobody who really believes that is going to take the leap of faith that is required to be a serious artist. Stay out of school."--Ellis Marsallis to his sons Branford, Delfeayo and Wynton.

"Invent nothing. Deny nothing. Stand up. Speak up. Stay out of school."--David Mamet, TRUE AND FALSE.

"Insist on yourself; never imitate. Your own gift you can present every moment with the cumulative force of a whole life's cultivation; but of the adopted talent of another, you have only an extemporaneous, half possession. That which each can do best, none but his Maker can teach him. No man yet knows what it is, nor can, till that person has exhibited it. Where is the master who could have taught Shakspeare? Where is the master who could have instructed Franklin, or Washington, or Bacon, or Newton? Every great man is a unique. The Scipionism of Scipio is precisely that part he could not borrow. Shakspeare will never be made by the study of Shakspeare. Do that which is assigned you, and you cannot hope too much or dare too much."--Ralph Waldo Emerson, from ON SELF RELIANCE http://www.emersoncentral.com/selfreliance.htm

"The initiation of all wise or noble things, comes and must come from individuals; generally at first from some one individual. The honor and glory of the average man is that he is capable of following that initiative; that he can respond internally to wise and noble things, and be led to them with his eyes open. I am not countenancing the sort of "hero-worship" which applauds the strong man of genius for forcibly seizing on the government of the world and making it do his bidding in spite of itself. All he can claim is, freedom to point out the way. The power of compelling others into it, is not only inconsistent with the freedom and development of all the rest, but corrupting to the strong man himself. It does seem, however, that when the opinions of masses of merely average men are everywhere become or becoming the dominant power, the counterpoise and corrective to that tendency would be, the more and more pronounced individuality of those who stand on the higher eminences of thought. It Is in these circumstances most especially, that exceptional individuals, instead of being deterred, should be encouraged in acting differently from the mass. In other times there was no advantage in their doing so, unless they acted not only differently, but better. In this age the mere example of non-conformity, the mere refusal to bend the knee to custom, is itself a service. Precisely because the tyranny of opinion is such as to make eccentricity a reproach, it is desirable, in order to break through that tyranny, that people should be eccentric. Eccentricity has always abounded when and where strength of character has abounded; and the amount of eccentricity in a society has generally been proportional to the amount of genius, mental vigor, and moral courage which it contained. That so few now dare to be eccentric, marks the chief danger of the time."--from ON LIBERTY, John Stuart Mill http://www.serendipity.li/jsmill/on_lib.html

"My schooling not only failed to teach me what it professed to be teaching, but prevented me from being educated to an extent which infuriates me when I think of all I might have learned at home by myself."--George Bernard Shaw.

"Men are born ignorant, not stupid. They are made stupid by education."--Bertrand Russell.

"Schools and schooling are increasingly irrelevant to the great enterprises of the planet. No one believes anymore that scientists are trained in science classes or politicians in civics classes or poets in English classes. The truth is that schools and schooling don't really teach anything except how to follow orders."--John Taylor Gatto.

"We get three educations. The first is from our parents; the second is from our schoolmasters. The third is from life. The last makes liars of the first two."--Montesquieu. (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/montesquieu/,

"It is, in fact, nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction have not entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry; for this delicate little plant, aside from stimulation, stands mainly in need of freedom; without this it goes to wrack and ruin without fail. It is a very great mistake to think that the enjoyment of seeing and searching can be promoted by means of coercion and a sense of duty."--Albert Einstein.

"The history of music (and all the arts--Reg Hartt) has always been, that the theorists of one generation collect examples and make rules out of them, from the work produced by the preceding generation which did not know it was making rules."--Deems Taylor, OF MEN AND MUSIC.

"I had wonderful teachers in the first and second grade who taught me everything I know. After that the teachers were nice but they were dopes...I have a lack of ideology, and not because I am anti-intellectual or have an animus against any particular ideology; it's just that they don't make sense to me...they get in the way of thinking. I don't see what use they are...University and uniformity, as ideals, have subtly influenced how people thought about education, politics, economics, government, everything...We are misled by universities and other intellectual institutions to believe there are separate fields of knowledge. But it is clear there are no separate fields. It is a seamless web."--Jane Jacobs. (http://www.preservenet.com/theory/Jacobs.html, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Jacobs,

“The best thing about a Reg Hartt presentation is what he has to say,”—Jane Jacobs.

"We only really learn in conversation after sex."--Judith Merril. (http://www.judithmerril.com/)


"The child sees much more clearly than the adult (who has already decided what he will and will not see)."--William S. Burroughs.

"The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction."--William Blake.

"Writing is a gift. It can not be taught. All I could do by teaching it is damage the gift in those I would be teaching and destroy it in myself."--J. D. Sallinger.

FOR THE YOUNG WHO WANT TO
Talent is what they say/ you have after the novel/is published and favourably/reviewed. Beforehand what/you have is a tedious/ delusion, a hobby like knitting.

Work is what you have done/after the play is produced/and the audience claps./Before that friends keep asking/when you are planning to go/ out and get a job.

Genius is what they know you/had after the third volume/of remarkable poems. Earlier/ they accuse you of withdrawing,/ask why you don't have a baby,/ call you a bum.

The reason people want M.F.A.'s,/ take workshops with fancy names/when all you can really learn is a few techniques,/ typing instructions and some-/body else's mannerisms

is that every artist lacks/a license to hang on the wall/like your optician, your vet/proving you may be a clumsy sadist/ whose fillings fall into the stew/but you're certified a dentist.
The real writer is one/ who really writes. Talent/is an invention like phlogiston,/ after the fact of fire./ Work is its own cure. You have to/like it better than being loved. -- Marge Piercy.

Dear Reg Hartt,

Last year I came to see one of your wonderful movie showings at The Cineforum. It was "THE SALVADOR DALI MOVIE FESTIVAL." You showed two films by the surrealist Salvador Dali (my hero) and Luis Bunuel. Back then I was 15 and the passionately delivered speech you made before the movies was the most important educational experience of my life. It was so liberating and refreshing to hear and learn about something that was beyond what we are taught at school. After you recommended us to read "THE UNDERGROUND HISTORY OF AMERICAN EDUCATION"." I read it religiously. That day changed my life; it exposed me to something completely new and exciting. The speech is still with me and I think about it all the time, even after all this time has passed. It reached very deep and there are no words to describe how thankful I am to have made it there accidentally that night. Thank you for dedicating your time to showing and telling the public about what is out there beyond what most people know. I encourage you to keep inspiring young people such as myself to think of which direction they really want to lead their life. Sincerely, Maria Tsylke.

You can view the original at:

http://groups.msn.com/DinnerAtCineforum/reghartt.msnw?
action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=980

AGAINST SCHOOL -
How public education cripples our kids, and why
By John Taylor Gatto - September 2003, Harpers Magazine

John Taylor Gatto is a former New York State and New York City Teacher of the Year and the author, most recently, of 'The Underground History of American Education'.
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/hp/frames.htm
While you are there download Gatto's explosive UNDERGROUND HISTORY OF AMERICAN EDUCATION.

"I honestly believe Reg Hartt is the greatest teacher I know for only he preaches the evil of teaching. Well, not only he. For confirmation of everything he says read David Mamet’s TRUE AND FALSE. ."--Emo Philips. (http://www.emophillips.com/home)

"I credit Reg Hartt as often as possible for introducing me to great films and great film makers. I hope he continues to inspire young artists."--John Kricfalusi (whose teachers at Sheridan Colleges's animation school felt had no talent and was a bad influence on his classmates. John was not allowed to take a second year. Good thing too. He jump started his animation career. With help from Bob Clampett John went to Hollywood and got into the animation industry where he earned while he learned. Every kick in the ass is a free boost forwards).


Re: GILGAMESH

"Reg, you have a way of making even the oldest story seem fresh. I like your uncut version better than the one i recently read."--Seth (http://www.bookslut.com/features/2004_06_002650.php, http://www.zompist.com/bob16.html)

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Law
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Wow! Quite controversial, but I have to agree with what is said for the very most part.

I am a college drop out and I learned the majority of my professional development took place on the job. My choice in dropping out of school hasn't hurt me one bit.I have realized my professional goals and am enjoying a prosperous career in animation.

I think it's pretty easy to see the effects of the cookie cutter mold of ppl turned out by what is pawned off as "education".

Very interesting.....you got some amazing quotes there. It'll be interesting to see where this thread goes [handball]

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KevinO
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All I can add is, it's the reason we homeschool our kids and will continue to do so.
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Striker
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I find nothing wrong with not finishing school. We don't need to be in animation school to learn animation. Although being in animation school will help you fast track to a better job.
I went to two years of Sheridan before going to Disney Toronto. I was supposed to return to Sheridan for my third year, but after my summer stint at Disney, I was given an offer by one of the the senior lead animators to come work for him as his contract was finished and he was going on his own. I never ended up returning to Sheridan and spent nearly 5 years working with this guy on various films, shows and commercials. For the first 2 years it was one on one and I learned FAR AND BEYOND anything I ever learned at Sheridan. The only regret I had was that I never got to do a final film, but with the advent of Flash, that's all changed.
I guess my point is that, yes, school will expose you to the jobs and the people, but if you have the skill, and already know the people, then save your money.

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Minds are like parachutes - they only function when open.
- Thomas Dewar

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Jennifer Hachigian Jerrard
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Schooling at Sheridan and Cal Arts didn't cripple the incredible work of Michel Gagné, Peter Chung or those Pixar guys.

---

Paraphrasing Dave Sim..."If you really want to do something, nothing can stop you. If you don't really want to do something, no one can help you."

I don't recommend school for those who can't afford it, but I don't think school will somehow harm a truly determined artist, either.

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Law
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quote:
The article is talking about the secondary school system, which is very different from post-secondary education. Just as the education received from a Technical College is quite different than a University education.

I don't think any of us would disagree with the value of qualified, dedicated training. I think the issue is taken up with the general preception of "education"...

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Gagne Michel
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Actually, going to Sheridan College was one of the highlight of my life. True, I never graduated and skipped a lot of the classes, but I loved the environment, the accessibility to equipment and technicians, and being around people with similar interests. If I recall correctly, Reg Hartt even came to the school to do a lecture and show us some Tex Avery cartoons.

My student years were full of hopes, excitements and the promises of greatness to come. It's interesting to note that when I entered the industry as a professional, I was showered with bitterness, constant complaining and desillusion. I'm glad I had Sheridan as a buffer to the industry, and a way for me to express my creativity outside of the requirements of a job. That sense of exploration and discovery has never left me.

So, let's not generalize too much here.

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Mel Allen Sink
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This is what I was going to reply in the previous thread but it was already locked:

quote:
The article is talking about the secondary school system, which is very different from post-secondary education. Just as the education received from a Technical College is quite different than a University education.
I'm thinking about how I washed out of Iowa State because it was too much like the MST3Ky insult of being "the high school after high school". The pet playing jerks coddled by tenure and the system. The same old favoring the left brained and verbal, especially pretty preppie image people, and disapproving of the left brained visual people like me. Having technical talents that I wasn't able to flex because I was being picked on over spelling and grammar, without ever being told how to do it right, with bitter irony because this was happening when I was in their engineering school. The second time around, having art talents that I wasn't able to flex because I was being picked on over spelling and grammar, without ever being told how to do it right, with bitter irony because this was happening when I was in their art school. Plus half their art classes were a subtle variations of the one in Ghost World the movie and half the rest weren't that subtle. [Mad]

They did cause a lot of pain and crippled somebody's future. I needed up going through an emotional crises and even lost my religion during that because nobody stood up for me. [Gary]

BTW, check out some Jon Katz type articles about geeks versus the education system.

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http://melallensink.blogspot.com

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Mel Allen Sink
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quote:
I don't recommend school for those who can't afford it, but I don't think school will somehow harm a truly determined artist, either.
Mistreat somebody until they give up. [Mad]

I can think of three from my old Junior High and High School alone!

Having somebody there who was friendly enough to teach some figure rendering, narrative, etc in my teens would have been nice. Instead of still struggling to figure them out 30 years later. [Gary]

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http://melallensink.blogspot.com

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Mel Allen Sink
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quote:
Go out and find a studio that is hiring and will train people on the job.
The only studio in the region that was hiring, wasn't training. That was back in 1985. Both of our loses. I would have worked hard and then even donated time and effort to the studio's side projects like a proposed animated Space Commander Whack.

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Reg Hartt
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"Actually, going to Sheridan College was one of the highlight of my life. True, I never graduated and skipped a lot of the classes, but I loved the environment, the accessibility to equipment and technicians, and being around people with similar interests. If I recall correctly, Reg Hartt even came to the school to do a lecture and show us some Tex Avery cartoons."--Gagne Michel, IE # 40, Member # 365

Michael, Those screenings were sponsored by John Kricfalusi. John got the boot from Sheridan at the start of his second year. They told him he had no talent and was a bad influence on his classmates. Part of their dislike for him came from the screenings we did there. John had a wonderful enthusiasm. I have enjoyed his success very much.


"They did cause a lot of pain and crippled somebody's future. I needed up going through an emotional crises and even lost my religion during that because nobody stood up for me."-- Mel Allen Sink, IE # 236, Member # 3123\


Mel, Most of The Old Testament Prophets met violent deaths. Nobody stood up for Jesus. The Buddha was poisoned by his cousin. Socrates was poisoned by a democratic vote (what is democracy but legalized murder?). Aesop was told that if he could not keep his mouth shut he'd be tossed off a cliff. He replied, "Better the death I die today than the one thousand and one deaths I will die tomorrow." That is not a good enough reason for losing your faith.

Check this out:

At the next vacancy for God, if I am elected, I shall forgive last the delicately wounded who, having been slugged no harder than anyone else, never got up again, neither to fight back, nor to finger their jaws in painful admiration.

They who are wholly broken, and they in whom mercy is understanding, I shall lead to pillows in Heaven. But they who are the meek by trade, baiting the best of their betters with extortions of a mock-helplessness

I shall take last to love, and never wholly. Let them all into Heaven--I abolish Hell--but let it be read over them as they enter: "Beware the calculations of the meek, who gambled nothing, gave nothing, and could never receive enough."
--John Ciardi, IN PLACE OF A CURSE
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"All I can add is, it's the reason we homeschool our kids and will continue to do so."--KevinO, IE # 36, Member # 56

Kudos to you!

John Robert Colombo is one of this country's great writers. Her teacher at University flunked a piece his daughter wrote. Mr. Colombo read it; said, "This is really good," and sued the university which found out the teacher had an animus against his daughter. Not enough parents stand up for their kids.

When I brought Bob Clampett to Toronto for three days in the summer of 1979 I had to deal with local fans who whined the event was too expensive and told people I would not be able to do it so don't buy tickets. I knew no one locally would support the event so I wrote them off. I bought a full page ad in MINDROT (a Minneapolis fanzine) in which I offered Bob Clampett plus 200 cartoons over three days in Toronto. That fanzine went around the world. Then I gave the local fans who were telling folks not to buy tickets free ones ("Do good to those who do evil to you."--Jesus). That shut them up for a bit.

I had over two hundred people fly in from all over the world...Athens, Paris, London, Tokyo, Moscow, New York, Buffalo, Miami, and even Hollywood. The locals still complained the event was too expensive.

Ditto when I brought up Friz Freleng, Grim Natwick and Shamus Culhane (who gave a wonderful week of his life to about twelve people). The second time I brought Shamus up was so that he and Zack Schwarz could have one last hurrah together before they went on to animation Heaven. That time we went to Sheridan.

I had a host of other people I wanted to bring up but the local lack of enthusiasm (and "knowingness" from those who know nothing and are proud of it) caused me to put a halt to that.

Anyway, one fourteen year old brought in a film he had made. I decided to put it into the festival. This international audience was not told who had made it. They did not know the artist was fourteen. They went wild. Later that year the film maker came to me in tears. His animation teacher had told him the film was no good. I told him the arts are subjective. We can not leave ourselves at the mercy of one person's opinion and added that over two hundred people had gone wild over his film that summer. I also told him to get his ass out of that classroom, which he did.


I self published the talks Clampett, Freleng and Natwick gave here. Right now I am creating cds and dvds of those events. If interested get in touch.

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papercut
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Actually I was surprised when the moderator shut down the previous thread, I hadn't noticed it was three years old. I'm not sure why you've decided to dig it up again, but I suppose we'll give it new life.

You've certainly found a wellspring of quotes. I’ll inform you right now, I’m not going to attack this discussion with the same vehemence. I have very little spare time as it is to write creatively, I won’t squander it debating on-line.

Many of the quotes you’ve posted are directed at the public school system, and many of them are from outdated sources. Some of these statements were made at a time when corporal punishment, segregation, and numerous other antiquated practices existed in the school system. But I’m not here to defend the public school system. You see, we also home school our kids. In fact, we unschool our kids. They’ve never attended the public school system. I’ve spent many hours explaining the merits of home schooling. So I’m quite familiar with the argument.

I also teach at the college level. I’ve also taught home schoolers at the college level. So I am familiar with both secondary and post-secondary systems. They are quite different. Technical colleges more closely resemble the age old practice of apprenticeship. They’re taught by people who have a working knowledge of the material, and the instruction is practical, not theoretical. The instructors and students share a passion for animation.

I’ve had the wonderful opportunity to teach many students (too many to list, and far too many to quote). Each student came with different abilities, some were talented draftsmen, some gifted storytellers, and still others were well organized and methodical. Very few of them, if any possessed all of these qualities. They all benefited from having access to an objective educated opinion, and the guidance of someone whose soul purpose in life was to help them reach their goals.

To use a metaphor; someone can jump into a swift moving river and attempt to learn to swim, or at least not drown, or they can step in a swimming pool and have someone teach them how to float first.

Besides, there are many talented people who have worked in the industry, who are having a hard time finding work, how many positions do you think are available for people wanting to learn the business. Interesting theory, but I don’t think it’s a practical solution for the majority of people looking to achieve their goals.

But as I said, I can’t afford the time to debate this topic. It has all the makings of a virtual vortex, holding people captive with conjecture and opinion, while accomplishing very little.

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HopelessDreamer
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Don't ever change, Reg.
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HopelessDreamer
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 -

Still got it.

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eboles
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quote:
Actually I was surprised when the moderator shut down the previous thread, I hadn't noticed it was three years old.
The policy of not allowing old threads to be revived bothers me. I just don't see the harm in it. If a new thread is started on the same subject it just winds up being a rehash. Some users may no longer be present to reply to comments they made years ago, but so what?

As for the merits of schooling or not, I think most would prefer if they could learn on the job, if possible. The reality is it very difficult to get an entry-level position when you're up against graduates with several years worth of education behind them. School isn't a bad option in the mean time. It will never teach you to become an artist, but it will push you in directions you might not go in otherwise, left to your own devices, and you have the excuse to spend all your time on your art. You learn as much from other students as from the tutors. In the end, I think everyone winds up being self-taught to a degree, and has to figure out a certain amount of things for themselves.

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monkeydad
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"My student years were full of hopes, excitements and the promises of greatness to come. It's interesting to note that when I entered the industry as a professional, I was showered with bitterness, constant complaining and desillusion."

So true. Then as now...

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Evan Esparza
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All I'm going to say is a Canadian winter can make you truly crazy...and it's best that Hartt STAYS in Canada with the rest of the nutjobs!

LA may be weird as hell, but at least our crazies are for more school funding and greater pay of teachers!

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Charles
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Would like to follow up Evan's observation and remind our friends here and elsewhere that the AN movement and this site which many people utilize all over the world came to be as a result of the efforts of a very pro-active school in Burbank that had its humble beginnings in the back of a local restaurant and is revolutionizing the biz.

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HopelessDreamer
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Yes, let them have those whackjobs that call for socialized medicine and equal rights for gay people.

We'll keep our red-blooded American nutcases that keep medical marijuana outlawed and rifles available at your local Wal•Mart.

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papercut
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I would like to follow up Evan's comment with a reminder that his blanketed statement about Canada is jingoistic...but I know all Americans don't behave like him.
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Charles
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That's a en excellent way of getting your non-subscribed account suspended, guys. Simmer down, you're completely over-reacting.

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abe
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Thanks for the interesting topic Reg. We also homeschool our kids and I agree with papercut about the difference between compulsory schooling and schools that are attended voluntarily.
I remember reading about how Nick Park and Mark Baker benefited from being able to discuss their projects with each other. Schools can be great places to meet likeminded people and team up on projects. Think about the generation of Brad Bird and John Lasseter. That is a big group of people that came out of CalArts which has been working together on and off for decades. I love seeing all the work done at Gobelins in France, where students team up into small teams of 4 or 5 people and produce little shorts commissioned by the Annecy Festival. These films are very well done and I would think most of these students could get jobs in studios instead of doing the several required films at Gobelins. But the school gives them the chance to develop their own work rather than enter the animation work force with mostly very specialized careers. All this being said, with the possibilities of the internet collaborations are now possible without schools. I look at the comics in the Flight anthologies. These are mostly young people who met through internet forums. For animation though I think it's more inspiring to actually be with people.

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Fooksie
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I really liked the school I went to. I had an ex Disney animator as a teacher, and the things I learned from him were priceless.

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" Every move a picture! "
Buddy Love

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Chris Roman
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As a future parent, I'm curious and frankly astonished that a) there are so many people who homeschool their kids, and b) have TIME to homeschool their kids.

I personally feel quite proud of being a product of public education, and believe, while much of the blame can be placed on the system, it is equally the blame of the individual that doesn't endeavor to improve themselves within that system. I took the advanced placement classes. I did the extra-credit work. I pushed myself to squeeze every ounce of education out of that public school experience. You can say that the system needs to be inspiring, challenging, and uplifting...but how much can be done if the students themselves don't care to learn?

At the same time I must admit that I never went to school for animation, and yet here I am in that industry. Through my own research and on-the-job experience I taught myself everything I needed to know.

Personally, I've always wondered about any social adjustments home-schooled kids may have to endure. Do your kids have friends? How socially adjusted are they? I ask these questions sincerely, because as I mentioned I'm planning on being a parent soon and often think about the educational options open to parents these days and what I might choose when the time arises.

And when do you have time to home school AND hold down a full time job? What do you teach? What do you have your kids do?

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Ravenshoe
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quote:
Personally, I've always wondered about any social adjustments home-schooled kids may have to endure. Do your kids have friends? How socially adjusted are they?
BINGO!

Got to agree with you on that one, Chris. I know some very strange people who insist on home schooling their very strange children. Kids need to socialize at a very early age. The old saying is, "show me the child and I'll show you the man".

Also, the entire topic of the thread, "Stay Out of School" posted on a website that is affiliated with a school is questionable? In bad taste?

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Reg Hartt
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"It is good taste, not bad taste, which is the enemy of art."--Salvador Dali.

You are not supposed to "educate" your kids. You are supposed to be putting food on the table, etc.. The role of the wife (in traditional society globally) is to take care of inside the home. These are full time jobs. The role of educating the children traditonally fell to the elders. The grandparents could no longer hunt, etc.. The grandmothers could no longer care for the home. They took care of the children. Thus each generation coming in grew up in touch with the generation leaving. This is what the great Sioux Shaman Black Elk called "the sacred circle." (http://www.americanwriters.org/works/speaks.asp, http://jbtank.com/indians/blackelk.html). The death of the elders is an important part of the maturing process for each of us. This was what gave us respect for the earth. Black Elk noted not only that that circle was being broken but also there would come those who would repair it. That is the job of our generation. The children are tomorrow. There is nothing more important than them. That so many men and women think dead things are more important than living beings is the crime of our time. When plants grow up crooked is because the gardener did not do his/her job.

Do not get the impression, by jumping to conclusions, that I am against academia. I am not.

I love the new technology. I love that for the first time in human history we can dialogue globally. I love that dvds can capture a whole movie on a tiny disc with better picture and sound than 35mm film was ever able to give. I love it all. I feel like a kid in a toy shop full of toys he never imagined. I want to play with all of them.

I know that D. W. Griffith, Charlie Chaplin, Buster Keaton and all the great artists of the dawn of film would have lept at the chance to play with the toys we have been given.

Years ago a young fellow coming to my screenings was going through great frustration trying to get his comics published as he wanted to do them. He kept getting pink slips saying, "This work is not what we want."

If I have one message for burgeoning artists it is own your work. Lease it out but have the final copyright come back to you.

The kid began to publish is books on 8 1/2 X11' paper folded. Of course he had to run the same gauntlet of fools ("Yes, let them have those whackjobs that call for socialized medicine and equal rights for gay people. We'll keep our red-blooded American nutcases that keep medical marijuana outlawed and rifles available at your local Wal•Mart."--HopelessDreamer, Member # 2673, posted November 17, 2005 04:57 PM ) Yes, of course, he had to run the same gauntlet of fools every original person has had to run. Had he refused to run it he would have died. His work would never have found its audience.

Finally a publisher came along who said, "This is good. I want to publish it."

"Only if I own the rights," the kid said.

The publisher wanted it. "Fine," he said. The publisher was Drawn and Quarterly. The kid was Chester Brown. The comic was YUMMY FUR. The rest is history. (http://newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7360, http://www.lambiek.net/artists/b/brown.htm).

Chester was soon joined by Joe Matt (http://www.bookslut.com/fiction/2004_01_001308.php, http://www.lambiek.net/artists/m/matt.htm, http://www.twohandedman.com/Interviews/joematt.html) and Seth (http://www.bookslut.com/features/2004_06_002650.php, http://suicidegirls.com/words/Palookaville+-+Clyde+Fans+creator+Seth/).

Today the people who sent Chester pink slips are happy to publish anything he chooses to send them. Few working for commercial comic publishers enjoy the freedom and is taken as seriously as are Chester and his friends of the independent world of comix.

Of course, it is a lot easier to self-publish a comic than it is to self publish a movie.

However, with the advances in technology it is now possible not only to create an animated or live action film by one's self (the way truly great creators work--and, yes, you can use assistants just as DaVinci and Michaelangelo did), it is now possible, for the first time ever, to get your work out where people can see it and that is the most important thing.

Admittedly, not everyone is a creator.

In fact, most folks are not. Most folk want work but who also complain that the employer is getting wealthy, buying Porches, etc. They are like Essau who sold his birthright for a bowl of soup. The only sensible way to look at life is that it is a privilege we are willing to pay for. Otherwise we make ourselves whiners and beggars.

At 6 I drew nudes when my first grade teacher asked us to draw people. "You are an artist," she said, gave me colored chalk and encouraged me. She was the principal's wife.

My second-grade teacher read from THE BIBLE, freaked at my nudes, told me I had a dirty mind and beat me.

I knew if I had done something wrong my first grade teacher would have told me. At seven I knew teachers could be wrong. I began to think for myself. I also became dedicated to drawing nudes. I am glad I passed through that fire. That is a baptism we all have to pass through, as St. Paul makes clear.

My sister began school when I started grade 3. We had moved to a different town. She played with the new principal's neice. She said "hello," to the principal when she saw her. At noon when I came to get her to bring her home she was in tears.

She had been taken from her classroom to the office where she got the strap.

From that moment I have been on the side of every kid the system tries to crush. I am here not for the ones who go to college or university. I am here for those who find those doors shut.

I am here for the kids like John Kricfalusi who are told by their teachers, "You have no talent. You are a bad influence. We are kicking you out."

For the rest of this go to: http://groups.google.ca/group/RegHarttSpeaks?lnk=li

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tstevens
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This thread seems to have taken the downward spiral into overinflated quotations and platitudes.

Your knowledge of obscure quotations, while dizzying is at best convoluted. If you intend to pursuade people with long and drawn out posts then you are surely winding down the spiral that I mentioned above.

Here is a quote for you,

"If you can't wow them with brilliance, then baffle them with Bull Sh**!"

-Grandpa Stevens

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http://www.foogersnarts.blogspot.com

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abe
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Chris, I was quite skeptical of the homeschooling concept before our kids were born. If you're interested I recommend the books by John Holt. The Burbank library had most of them last time I checked. I would start with "How children learn". This is inspiring reading, even if you don't want to homeschool. A lot of the things that Reg is quoting (John Taylor Gatto for example) focus on negative aspects of public schools. In Holts writings I enjoy reading about the positive things that can come out of alternative approaches.

There is a big homeschooling group in Burbank and plenty of opportunities to make friends. Some people do school at home following a curriculum, some people do it for religious reasons and some do what is, for a lack of a better word, called unschooling.
There are also several camping events over the year and many kids I know have friends from Northern California and even Oregon.

It's a big commitment and investment, since one parent usually stays at home.

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HopelessDreamer
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You can say that the system needs to be inspiring, challenging, and uplifting...but how much can be done if the students themselves don't care to learn?

The Alphas are going to need their Savages.

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HopelessDreamer
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What would you prefer he do, tstevens , argue his case with shadow puppets? [Smile]
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tstevens
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Cutouts.

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http://www.foogersnarts.blogspot.com

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Hockey Frog
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Mr. Esparza should feel welcome to stay exactly where he is.

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"I was obliged to work hard. Anyone who works equally hard will succeed, equally."
Johann Sebastian Bach

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Ravenshoe
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Touche!
[cheers]

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Ravenshoe
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quote:
"It is good taste, not bad taste, which is the enemy of art."--Salvador Dali.
I find it interesting that someone would quote Dali. He made it a practice to sign reams of blank paper BEFORE the images were printed on them. These "blanket approvals" destroyed the market value of his work, reducing his art and signiture to pure hucksterism. Not exactly someone I'd use as a barometer of artistic integrity.
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Kion
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quote:
I find it interesting that someone would quote Dali. He made it a practice to sign reams of blank paper BEFORE the images were printed on them. These "blanket approvals" destroyed the market value of his work, reducing his art and signiture to pure hucksterism. Not exactly someone I'd use as a barometer of artistic integrity.
true, but his work was cool, thats all that really matters.

"If you can laugh at yourself, loud and hard, every time you fall, people will think you’re drunk"

-conan o'brian-

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papercut
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I regret I'm so busy currently and can't join the discussion. Fortunately Abe understands home schooling and can help enlighten people.

I just wanted to address this comment...

quote:
Kids need to socialize at a very early age.
This is always the first statement I hear whenever the topic of home schooling arises. Home schoolers are actually socialized in a more natural environment than children in the public school system. Kids in the public school system are placed in a room of twenty to thirty kids that are all exactly the same age. Outside of schools, this type of environment doesn't exist. When people enter the "real" world (whatever that is) they'll be in an all ages environment. I ask you, would you rather your child learn their social skills from another kid, or from a community of people.

I imagine people envision kids sitting at home in their dank basements working in total isolation. This is not the case. Home schooling is a very active and involved community.

But as Abe stated it's a lot of work. I certainly don't think it's for everyone. Like everything else it has pros and cons. It's really a question of whether you believe the pros out weigh the cons.

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Law
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quote:
Kids need to socialize at a very early age.
My school memories of "socialization" involved walking through various smoke clouds of illegal substances and getting threatened, chased, and assaulted. [tipsy]

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Corn Fed
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quote:
My school memories of "socialization" involved walking through various smoke clouds of illegal substances and getting threatened, chased, and assaulted.
And this differs from your professional environment...how, exactly?
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OFFBEAT
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It's my theory that there are numurous ways of teaching and learning..

One is text. Reading and absorbing information from books.

Second is Lecture. Spoken word..

The Third is visuals.. slides.. history channel etc.. Instruction manuals.

and Fourth is hands on training.

Then there's combinations of those..

There have been many occassions where i've read something, and it didn't make sense or have an impact like seeing a photograph along with it, or someone telling me in a different way.

I think the best way to learn is through a combination of the 4. The more the better.

I enjoy history much better on the History Channel than I did in high school.

In High school.. I was either assigned to read from a text book.. which was nothing but the boring facts.. or Listening to a monoton teacher read from those boring government approved text book.

But on the history channel, with visuals, recreations.. maps.. etc.. it becomes 100x more interesting.

I know I retain information better if I read it outloud rather than just reading it.

People who learn best from "hands on" have the hardest time, cause there's very few classes offered that way.

I think that may explain why those people chose auto-shop, welding, music, art.. It's my belief if you were to show those same people how to perform a brain surgery.. and say .. cut here.. shovel skull like this.. pull that.. poke that.. scoop this.. They'd be able to do it swimmingly.

Again.. just my theory from observation.

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OFFBEAT
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I forgot to write that the public school system only teaches the text and lecture methods. Because they are the most popular.. and if you're someone who thinks visually.. you might feel excluded.

My point is not everyone is wired the same way.. and while being an auto-didact for one person might not work for another like college could.. or hands on for another.

So.. someone coming out and say stay out of school because it didn't work for them, and assuming it doesn't work for anyone else is just near-sighted mis-understanding (nice way of putting it) on their part. Like Tom Cruise telling people not to go to psychologists or take meds.

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