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» AnimationNation   » SideTopics   » Presidential Debates. Part 3 (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: Presidential Debates. Part 3
Charles
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Interested in what ANers thought about it.

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Matt Wilson
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Thought Bush went to town on Kerry tonight and Kerry retreated into his recycled soundbites, one of which (139 million windfall) was later proven incorrect by Bryan Williams and fact checkers who mentioned the claim was linked to a study that was later proven false and actually the opposite of the reality of the situation.

I think what people will get from this debate is that Bush is personal with the American public, Bush did not generate preprogrammed responses that had nothing to do with the question like Kerry did (at least until the last half hour), and Kerry.. is not personal. People will be bored of Kerry's monotonous circulatory debating.

Kerry: How am I gonna get the money to pay for these deficits? Uh... well first I'd like to go back to the previous question so I can avoid answering that.

Kerry: How am I gonna get the money to pay for these deficits? Well uh, first let me complain about what Bush did for a while, and maybe if, oh there's no time. Oh sorry. I'll answer it next time, I swear.

Kerry: How am I gonna get the money to pay for th.. you know what I just am. So there.

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Matt Wilson
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Made a typo. I said deficits but I meant to say "programs". Maybe it was just Freudian to connect Kerry with deficit, since that's what will happen.
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Corn Fed
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Bush:
"Gosh, I just don't think I ever said I'm not worried about Osama bin Laden. It's kind of one of those ex-a-gger-ations. Eh-heh-heh-heh-heh."

Of course, two years ago he said exactly that:

"I don’t know where he is. Nor — you know, I just don’t spend that much time on him really, to be honest with you. I....I truly am not that concerned about him."

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Corn Fed
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I guess Bush's current lack of concern toward Bin Laden mirrors his lack of concern and ignorance of Al Qaeda pre-9/11.
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RZetlin
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The debate started out dry with the starting questions about terror and Iraqi. Both candidates talked about the same lines as in the second debate.

In the second debate Bush compared Canada's medicine to a third world country. Now Bush is asking Canada for flu shots because of the shortage in America.

Bush's reply on gay rights and abortion pretty much alienated any votes from the gay community and women's rights groups.

Bush's answer to the assault ban is a little unreal. "More weapons on the streets? Just put more people in jail!"

Kerry warmed up more when he started to relate his answers to his personal life.

The answer from Bush on the last question was funny and damning at the same time, "At least my wife speaks better English than me!"

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Corn Fed
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quote:
Maybe it was just Freudian to connect Kerry with deficit, since that's what will happen.
How's the weather there in bizarro world?
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Matt Wilson
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Sunny. A little cold. Lots of people speaking in caveman dialect. My neighbors all seem to desire to conquer the earth. Not sure why.
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-FP-
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Neither candidate's best performance. I think Kerry appeared more non-retarded, but that's just me. As always, I flipped over to FOX and MSNBC and etc. after the big show. It was interesting to see FOX trumpet Bush's "clear victory", which clearly did not exist. Was it a debate, really? No. I was reassured that Schieffer did not let his friendship with Bush influence his questioning, which was equally hard on both candidates but not hard enough on either.

Funniest moment was after the debate on CNN, when someone persisted in holding up a KERRY EATS BABIES sign behind Wolf Blitzer, which was promptly covered up with other signs, including one that said BUSH IS STUPID.

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Sketchpad
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Neither candidate's best performance.

I agree with that FP's assessment.

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OFFBEAT
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I like Bush's answer for people who are losing their jobs to overseas.. that he has programs.. and then something about you going to community college to get a job in the 21st century.

Because we all know how much going to community college pays.

Oh wait.. no you gotta dish out money, AFTER losing your job to ousourcing. for 3-4 years to go to college. To learn a new job skill in the 21st century.
...That hopefully doesn't go overseas as well.

..and Bush saying "Gosh, I just don't think I ever said I'm not worried about Osama bin Laden. It's kind of one of those exaggerations."

Yeah, but it's an exaggeration caught on tape. I believe it's even on Farrenheit 9/11
dumbya ass!

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Steve G
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It seems pretty well agreed that Kerry won 3 for 3. It might be too early to tell for sure, but the initial reaction has always proved to grow even stronger within a few days.

W's on the ropes.

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Bruce
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Some random thoughts: I found this to be a rehash of the standard themes from the two candidates’ stump speeches, with a few new domestic issues (immigration, gay marriage, outsourcing) thrown into the mix for color.

I have a much clearer picture, though, of where Kerry stands on the issues now than I did before the debates; the countdown lights seem to have focussed him, forcing him to be concise and refrain from nuancing his answers. Or maybe his handlers just beat it out of him. In any event, a big plus. I also think that says something about the quality of campaign reporting which has been all too willing to spend way too much newsprint and airtime chasing nonsense like the Swift Boat charges and Rathergate. The kicker is that everyone has seemed ready to accept the casual lies and distortions each candidate introduced into the discussion, as if they’re just part of the fun -- hey, it's showbiz!

I am no fan of hurling softball crowd pleasers at the candidates, like getting them to talk about the place of religion in their lives or how much they love their wives and kids. Those things seem to play for most of America, bludgeoning the folks in Kansas or West Virginy into feelin’ all warm and fuzzy, at least those who aren’t watching the ball game. For me it’s just window dressing – how well can our candidate fake sincerity? Maybe we should get them to show us pictures of their dogs as well.

And even though I’m voting for Kerry, I did get tired of hearing the “I have a plan” line. I’m glad he’s got one (actually, he seems to have many) but “I have a plan” isn’t much of a rallying cry for the party faithful.

As for personalities, I find Bush’s golly-gosh good ol’ boy act tiresome and unconvincing. I’m amazed that people buy it. This is a guy who, after all, did graduate from Yale and Harvard Business School. Don’t you imagine there’s just a little bit of calculation that goes into this persona? Bush is not a stupid man, he just seems to like to play one on TV. The smirk, the aw shucks laughter, the tone – sometimes hectoring, sometimes pleading – all of these things indicate to me that this is a guy in way over his head, desperately paddling towards the shore.

You can see Kerry taking in the questions, thinking through his answers. He seems like a bit of a stiff, but it’s genuine stiffness. With Bush, I find myself nervously rooting for him to make it through his allotted time without repeating himself or screwing something up. I guess for some folks, that makes him likable. For me, it's excruciating; I have to keep reminding myself that this guy’s our president. With any luck, maybe not for long.

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JoeP
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Final Score:
Kerry-1
Cheney-1
Draw
Bush-1(but nobody was watching.)

Election's going to be interesting.

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Corn Fed
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Virtually none of the insta-polls have Bush winning the fourth debate, but rather decisively going to Kerry. Of course these things are best settled after a few days of reflection, but so far it looks like Kerry's side came out on top.
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Tobias A. Wolf
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Speaking of bizarro world; sometimes I feel like I'm trapped in some odd parallel universe when watching G.W.B. as President. I just don't understand how anyone can watch him wrestle with articulating reality and somehow look up to that as leadership behavior. It's like I'm living inside the pages of a Marvel What If issue entitled What if George W. Bush won the 2000 election?.

Denial ridden as it may be, I wish I was in the reality where that didn't happen. Where the thousands of lives lost in 9-11, Afghanistan, and Iraq were still with us. Where many of the rights stripped by the Patriot Act were still intact. Where all the jobs lost were still here. Where we still had a surplus. Where we didn't loose so much so fast. And if it could have been promised with certainty to me in 2000 that none of this would have happed under Bush, I would have voted for him in a heartbeat. But, it didn't happen that way. So, here we are, and even if I didn't vote for him, I feel like a loser when I watch him speak. I'm ashamed, and like many; I will not vote for Kerry, but against Bush.

But if Bush should win, somehow I think we all deserve it. We've lost. And I can't image what a second Bush presidency will bring unencumbered of reelection concerns. And if it's so close in count, and it's thrown to Bush, just what will people do? Storm the capitol with guns? Maybe, but, probably not.

Maybe we are all in denial about the 2000 coup...

If it happens along those lines of belief, (i.e. 2000), I believe our markets are sunk. It will be an unmistakable signal to foreign capitol that our political system is rigged, just as it is in many third world markets. And any capitol tied to investments that would stand to loose in such a rigged system will evaporate, just as it did after the 2000 decision (Yes, that's why the recession began to show up in Spring 2001 i.e. Foreign Capitol Flight) Only this time it will be much more clear just what is happening. And if we get a "margin call" from the world on our debt, we're all f*cked. We can't invade the whole world and force them to put money in our markets. There will be a reckoning on our bills, and many governmental services will be forced into privatization to survive. Social Security included.

Forget about what you've put into it. It's probably not going to be there, because it's already been spent. And the collectors will have legal dibs on your money. Hope you liked that Iraq war, because you probably won't be eating out Monday October 13, 2045. Crass and partisan as it may be, I hope I'm strong enough to punch the lights out of a bush voter when I'm sixty something, steal their lunch, and make them eat a leather boot heel of a soldier killed in Iraq. Consequences, dig? There is a price. And those who supported this ridiculous war should pay for it directly out of their paychecks and spare the rest of us. In fact, they should send their children as well. Bottom line, the fools should serve, if their willing to support a war and are able. Sorry for the downward tirade in war diatribes, but supporters should pay for it directly. In fact there should be no appropriations allotted to the pentagon outside of funds that taxpayers would submit directly via the IRS to the "effort" in Iraq. I wonder how big the appropriations would be? Yeah...

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Sketchpad
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A moment, I thought, was revealing when Kerry talked about Social Security beeing fixed during the Clinton years--it certainly did became a big problem once again after and under the Bush Administration. [Eek!]
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bronnie
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Many good points made here re: tonight's debate.
In terms of manner and comportment,with each debate I continue to find Kerry to be more and more "presidential",solid and confident.. Superficial as it sounds, it may well be a selling point with many Americans who have lost faith in the current administration. (Okay, though some months ago I did chuckle hearing a talk radio host liken Kerry to a tree from "Wizard of Oz",I'd still take that over Alfed E. Bush-man any day.) [Wink]
But seriously--Offbeat, I, too, found Dubya's pathetic "answer" to the offshoring question more disturbing than ever;and for precisely the reasons you cited..
He doesn't care,never did, and it shows loud and clear. Kerry's plan to close tax loopholes currently benefitting companies that outsource is at least a start.
As Bruce points out,Bush's "folksy" affability is wearing thin;yet I noticed, too, that at certain points during the debate he became almost defensively shrill,which came off rather badly and seemed a bit desperate,I thought. He has lead this nation down the tubes to where almost every national and international issue affecting this country today is clearly out of control and desperately needs correction--NOW. Let's hope Kerry's the man to do it..'cuz if Bush gets in again,we are DOOMED,IMHO. (Even life-long Republicans are leaving the GOP camp. I've spoken to quite a few really sharp,well-informed old folks at the retirement community my father now resides in, and they're voting for Kerry in droves.)

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JDC
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I watched the debate partially, I was in a bar watching the baseball games. I have to admit, its funnier to watch a debate without sound and be able to plug in your own dialogue while drinking a beer.

Kerry: "Hi, I used to answer the door for the Adams Family!"

Bush: "I'm fighting for the rights of other retarded muppets"

[Roll Eyes]

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JHBucktooth
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I wish Bush would explain how learnin' readin n' writin' will restore lost jobs. [Confused]
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PonsonbyBritt
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I thought Bushie was getting so maniacal that he was starting to foam at the mouth. All I know is that the little glob of spittle at the corner of his mouth was really grossing me out...
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Mr. Fun
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If this guy get reelected we deserve him.
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Jennifer Hachigian Jerrard
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quote:
If this guy get reelected we deserve him.
True. [Frown]

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SNAKEBITE
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JB, you have to prove you can read and write first...then you get funding for your school and then you get a job later...geesh, you expect Dubya just to hold your hand, don't you.... [abducted]

I'm scared....kids have to prove they're getting educated in order to get funding. But the lack of resources and teachers with over crowded
classes makes it little hard without the funding...thats what I love about dubya, he's just one big paradox...God bless America, please.

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BobV
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Geez, this thread is no fun. A bunch of people agreeing with one another about how Kerry won. Don't you miss Coffee Cat with his wacky spin? I sure do.
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Vincent
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My daughters school just let go one of their teachers due to lack of funds. This caused my daughters class to balloon from 20 students for one busy teacher, to 40 students for a teacher that can't possibly keep track of every childs progress.
Private school here we come. $$$$

Did I mention Bush won't be getting my vote.

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OFFBEAT
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Here's the transcript from last night...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/debatereferee/debate_1013.html

I'm gonna tear Bush apart piece by piece.. and i'll do it with half my brain tied behind my back...


Will we ever be safe and secure again?

BUSH: "Yes, we can be safe and secure, if we stay on the offense against the terrorists and if we spread freedom and liberty around the world."


If invading a country that had nothing to do with 9-11, or of being an immeniant threat.. and then staying there after KNOWING this as fact is NOT how you run a war on Terror!

BUSH: "I have got a comprehensive strategy to not only chase down the Al Qaida, wherever it exists -- and we're making progress; three-quarters of Al Qaida leaders have been brought to justice -- but to make sure that countries that harbor terrorists are held to account."


Well.. I hope you're gonna reveal this comprehensive strategy SOMEDAY instead of letting it live in your butthole. And 3/4th of th Al Qaida were brought to justice AS OF SEPT.11th 2001, and dumbya CANNOT take credit for that. And by saying that 3/4 of them are in custody.. that means that there is a number count of Al Qaida.. And Bush has said NUMEROUS times that he has no idea how many Al Qaida there are. So WHERE does this 75% figure come from? Again.. from his ass.
BTW.. we were harboring Terrorist pre 9/11.. they lived here.. went to flight school, are we to be held accountable?? Define 'harbor'.

BUSH: "As a result of securing ourselves and ridding the Taliban out of Afghanistan, the Afghan people had elections this weekend. And the first voter was a 19-year-old woman. Think about that. Freedom is on the march."

..Freedom IS on the march .... as we pull out. It is my opinion that it won't last. I believe freedom has to be taken by force by those who want it.

BUSH: "We held to account a terrorist regime in Saddam Hussein."


...what about the terrorism in Africa? Whats going on there makes Hitler and Hussein look like Shirley Temple. I guess people only deserve liberty if they have Oil as a natural resource.

BUSH: "My opponent just this weekend talked about how terrorism could be reduced to a nuisance, comparing it to prostitution, illegal gambling. I think that attitude and that point of view is dangerous. I don't think you can secure America for the long run if you don't have a comprehensive view as to how to defeat these people."


PLEASE... don't keep us on the edge of our seats! Please SHARE with us this comprehensive view that you hold! I guess Kerry's stance of "Finding the terrorists and then Killing them" is pretty confusing with all his big words, and technical mumbo jumbo. You CANNOT eliminate terrorism.. it's a mindset... in order to eliminate terrorism, you'd have to labodomize everyone on the face of the planet, and then everyone born here on out. I know it worked wonders on you!

BUSH: "At home, we'll do everything we can to protect the homeland. I signed the homeland security bill to better align our assets and resources. My opponent voted against it."


When you say your opponent voted against it.. please include ALL the details of this bill so we can all see WHY he voted against it. I'm sure you won't, because prolly more of us would agree with him on why he voted against it... and what "THINGS" are you doing to make it secure?

BUSH: "We're doing everything we can to protect our borders and ports."


Any mexican who came over here illegally, or any under 21 year old male whose gone to Canada to a nudie Bar will tell you that is BUSHIT! If you have a boat, and a gallon of gumption.. you can get into america.

BUSH: "But absolutely we can be secure in the long run. It just takes good, strong leadership."

Well, I agree with him on that.. just not in reference to him. Bush saying that he is a strong leader, is funnier to me than the Kim Jong puppet in Team America singing "Im sho wrownreeee"

BUSH: "Gosh, I just don't think I ever said I'm not worried about Osama bin Laden. It's kind of one of those exaggerations."


The way he said this, made me want to jump through the TV and give him an old school playground beatdown. Actually, you have mr.bush.. on two occassions that i've seen with my own eyes. Once was even on CNN! But, I'm guessing SINCE everything you have to say has no sincerity, it is easily forgetable. Get used to saying "Want sum wood? hyuck hyuck hyuck" after November 2nd

Bush: "Of course we're worried about Osama bin Laden. We're on the hunt after Osama bin Laden."

Who do you have hunting Osama Bin Laden? Elmer Fudd?

Bush: "We're using every asset at our disposal to get Osama bin Laden."


Every asset except for any of OUR troops. You know the ones in Iraq protecting your oil investment.. under the guise of "Iraqi Freedom"

Bush: "My opponent said this war is a matter of intelligence and law enforcement. No, this war is a matter of using every asset at our disposal to keep the American people protected."


..if that's what you're doing to running this war... then let's try intelligence, and see how that works. Maybe if you used intelligence, you'd realize terrorists aren't in Iraq.

SCHIEFFER: Suddenly we find ourselves with a severe shortage of flu vaccine. How did that happen?

BUSH: "My call to our fellow Americans is if you're healthy, if you're younger, don't get a flu shot this year. Help us prioritize those who need to get the flu shot, the elderly and the young."


... sounds like rationing to me.

SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, what do you say to someone in this country who has lost his job to someone overseas who's being paid a fraction of what that job paid here in the United States?

BUSH: "I'd say, Bob, I've got policies to continue to grow our economy and create the jobs of the 21st century. And here's some help for you to go get an education. Here's some help for you to go to a community college."


Community college?? Doesn't that take time and money? Does this plan include that landlords and grocers be given money to support you through community college while you get a '21st century' job? What if THAT job goes over seas? How many jobs are we going to have to train for in our lifetimes? You turd!

BUSH: "I went to Washington to solve problems. And I saw a problem in the public education system in America."


You sir, are living proof of that.

BUSH: "And so we said: Let's raise the standards. We're spending more money, but let's raise the standards and measure early and solve problems now, before it's too late."


That always works. Raising standards. Life isn't easy enough is it? I want to raise standards in the presidency.. that's why i'm voting for Kerry!

BUSH: "No, education is how to help the person who's lost a job. Education is how to make sure we've got a workforce that's productive and competitive."

Cause what he's saying is that what we are now aren't those things. What more does he expect from us? To BECOME machines??? Are we not the hardest workforce in the world as is? The Bushitter is saying it's not enough?? Da'Fug?

SCHIEFFER: New question to you, Senator Kerry, two minutes. And it's still on jobs. You know, many experts say that a president really doesn't have much control over jobs. For example, if someone invents a machine that does the work of five people, that's progress. That's not the president's fault.

So I ask you, is it fair to blame the administration entirely for this loss of jobs?

Mr. President?
(after getting a verbal beatdown from Kerry)
BUSH: " He voted to increase taxes 98 times and to bust the budget 277 times."


(SQUAK!) GEORGIE WANTS A CRACKER.

BUSH: "Senator, no one's playing with your votes. You voted to increase taxes 98 times. When they voted -- when they proposed reducing taxes, you voted against it 126 times."

(SQUAK!) GEORGIE WANTS A CRACKER.

SCHIEFFER: Both of you are opposed to gay marriage. But to understand how you have come to that conclusion, I want to ask you a more basic question. Do you believe homosexuality is a choice?

BUSH: "You know, Bob, I don't know. I just don't know."


sounds like : "All I know is that i'm not gay, so If people want my respect, they'll have to live like me.. heyuck heyuck."

BUSH: "I do know that we have a choice to make in America and that is to treat people with tolerance and respect and dignity. It's important that we do that.

And I also know in a free society people, consenting adults can live the way they want to live. "


I would have applauded that, if it sounded sincere or I didn't think someone wrote that for him. I punched those words into a speak n spell, and it came out more believable.

BUSH: "But as we respect someone's rights, and as we profess tolerance, we shouldn't change -- or have to change"

Because Americans sho' are tolerant towards gays as is. And by saying that they cannot achieve the same level in a relationship that straight people can, we are basically saying that there is something wrong with them. Since the government got involved with marriage.. (you know.. those pesky marriage licenses) and you must remember HOW they got involved.. at it's conception, the governments involvment into marriage was so, to prevent blacks from marrying whites. Look it up. Now that they are involved.. they either A. Have to remove themselves from this headache, and leave it to the churches.. or have to continue to say to gay taxpayers.. you're incapable of achieving the same legal rights that married couples have. It's the church's decision of who they can marry. And if they decided blacks and whites can marry...and that gays can marry then the government should to NOTHING to intervien.

BUSH: "our basic views on the sanctity of marriage. I believe in the sanctity of marriage. I think it's very important that we protect marriage as an institution, between a man and a woman."

That's your basic (another word for 'simple) view on marriage. Don't add me to your retarded equasion!

BUSH: "I'm deeply concerned that judges are making those decisions and not the citizenry of the United States. You know, Congress passed a law called DOMA, the Defense of Marriage Act."

...'So, i'm gunna apoint me some hillbillies that think just like me YEEEEEEEE-DOGGGGY!!! Let's go COON HUNTIN'"

SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry?

KERRY: We're all God's children, Bob. The president and I share the belief that marriage is between a man and a woman. I believe that. I believe marriage is between a man and a woman.

But I also believe that because we are the United States of America, we're a country with a great, unbelievable Constitution, with rights that we afford people, that you can't discriminate in the workplace. You can't discriminate in the rights that you afford people. "


...GOD, PLEASE BLESS JOHN KERRY, For he has a brain, and is able to use it for good.

SCHIEFFER: Mr. President?

BUSH: (about abortion) "What I'm saying is is that as we promote life and promote a culture of life, surely there are ways we can work together to reduce the number of abortions: continue to promote adoption laws -- it's a great alternative to abortion -- continue to fund and promote maternity group homes; I will continue to promote abstinence programs."


..Because giving birth to unwanted children into broken homes is a swell way to raise standards. No wait.. I meant crime.

Kerry hit it out of the park when he said Abortion is between a woman, her doctor, and with God. How they hell can you top that? That covers both sides of coin IMO.

SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, Health insurance costs have risen over 36 percent over the last four years according to The Washington Post. We're paying more. We're getting less.

I would like to ask you: Who bears responsibility for this? Is it the government? Is it the insurance companies? Is it the lawyers? Is it the doctors? Is it the administration?


BUSH: "Gosh, I sure hope it's not the administration."

(they forgot to add that he forced laughs like George McFly)
HYUCK HYUCK HYUCK GAWD DANG! I MADE ME A FUNNY! (que crickets chirping)

BUSH: "I think it's important, since he talked about the Medicare plan, has he been in the United States Senate for 20 years? He has no record on reforming of health care. No record at all. "

He's talking about it now, and sounds a helluva lot better than your solution...

SCHIEFFER: Mr. President?

BUSH: "In all due respect, I'm not so sure it's credible to quote leading news organizations about -- oh, nevermind."


...Now appearing at the NO LAUGH FACTORY... George Dumbya Bushit!

BUSH: "We have a fundamental difference of opinion. I think government- run health will lead to poor-quality health, will lead to rationing, will lead to less choice."

-- Unlike you suggesting not 10 minutes prior that young people NOT get flu shots, untill the elderly get them first? Sounds like rationing to me.


...I can't go on.. my head will explode. And how anyone said that he tied, or even did better than Kerry.. is incomprehensible to me.
[Gary]

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BobV
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Here's an awesome Op-Ed column in today's New York Times by Thomas Friedman:


Addicted to 9/11

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

Published: October 14, 2004


I don't know whether to laugh or cry when I hear the president and vice president slamming John Kerry for saying that he hopes America can eventually get back to a place where "terrorists are not the focus of our lives, but they're a nuisance." The idea that President Bush and Mr. Cheney would declare such a statement to be proof that Mr. Kerry is unfit to lead actually says more about them than Mr. Kerry. Excuse me, I don't know about you, but I dream of going back to the days when terrorism was just a nuisance in our lives.

If I have a choice, I prefer not to live the rest of my life with the difference between a good day and bad day being whether Homeland Security tells me it is "code red" or "code orange" outside. To get inside the Washington office of the International Monetary Fund the other day, I had to show my ID, wait for an escort and fill out a one-page form about myself and my visit. I told my host: "Look, I don't want a loan. I just want an interview." Somewhere along the way we've gone over the top and lost our balance.

That's why Mr. Kerry was actually touching something many Americans are worried about - that this war on terrorism is transforming us and our society, when it was supposed to be about uprooting the terrorists and transforming their societies.

The Bush team's responses to Mr. Kerry's musings are revealing because they go to the very heart of how much this administration has become addicted to 9/11. The president has exploited the terrorism issue for political ends - trying to make it into another wedge issue like abortion, guns or gay rights - to rally the Republican base and push his own political agenda. But it is precisely this exploitation of 9/11 that has gotten him and the country off-track, because it has not only created a wedge between Republicans and Democrats, it's also created a wedge between America and the rest of the world, between America and its own historical identity, and between the president and common sense.

By exploiting the emotions around 9/11, Mr. Bush took a far-right agenda on taxes, the environment and social issues - for which he had no electoral mandate - and drove it into a 9/12 world. In doing so, Mr. Bush made himself the most divisive and polarizing president in modern history.

By using 9/11 to justify launching a war in Iraq without U.N. support, Mr. Bush also created a huge wedge between America and the rest of the world. I sympathize with the president when he says he would never have gotten a U.N. consensus for a strategy of trying to get at the roots of terrorism by reshaping the Arab-Muslim regimes that foster it - starting with Iraq.

But in politicizing 9/11, Mr. Bush drove a wedge between himself and common sense when it came to implementing his Iraq strategy. After failing to find any W.M.D. in Iraq, he became so dependent on justifying the Iraq war as the response to 9/11 - a campaign to bring freedom and democracy to the Arab-Muslim world - that he refused to see reality in Iraq. The president seemed to be saying to himself, "Something so good and right as getting rid of Saddam can't possibly be going so wrong." Long after it was obvious to anyone who visited Iraq that we never had enough troops there to establish order, Mr. Bush simply ignored reality. When pressed on Iraq, he sought cover behind 9/11 and how it required "tough decisions" - as if the tough decision to go to war in Iraq, in the name of 9/11, should make him immune to criticism over how he conducted the war.

Lastly, politicizing 9/11 put a wedge between us and our history. The Bush team has turned this country into "The United States of Fighting Terrorism." "Bush only seems able to express our anger, not our hopes," said the Mideast expert Stephen P. Cohen. "His whole focus is on an America whose role in the world is to negate the negation of the terrorists. But America has always been about the affirmation of something positive. That is missing today. Beyond Afghanistan, they've been much better at destruction than construction."

I wish Mr. Kerry were better able to articulate how America is going to get its groove back. But the point he was raising about wanting to put terrorism back into perspective is correct. I want a president who can one day restore Sept. 11th to its rightful place on the calendar: as the day after Sept. 10th and before Sept. 12th. I do not want it to become a day that defines us. Because ultimately Sept. 11th is about them - the bad guys - not about us. We're about the Fourth of July.

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My favorite (from last night) other thanhis weak attempts at humor was when he told everyone the Texas borders are now better off without him as Gov.

The border issue is the one that should swing many Republicans to Kerry. He is actually discussing the thousands coming over illegally and the possiblity of many Al Quieda hiding amongst these aliens as they cross. Kerry recognizes the danger. W thinks it's AOK on the borders.

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Steve G
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Now this is what I like to see.....


quote:
A Republican Declares His Independence
By Robert L. Black
The Cincinnati Enquirer

Wednesday 13 October 2004

When in the course of a lifetime, it becomes necessary for a born Republican to refuse to support the re-election of the party's incumbent president, to exercise his discretion, and in all good conscience, to vote for an opponent (even a Democrat), a decent respect to the opinions of his fellows requires that he declare the causes that impel him to switch.

I am grateful to the Republican Party for the support it gave me on each of three elections as judge. I respect many of the party leaders in Ohio. Nevertheless, my loyalty to the party must give way to my love of this country. I consider it a patriotic duty to speak up when the future of our democracy is at stake.

It is self-evident that everyone has certain unalienable rights endowed by the Creator, and that among these are the right to his/her own conscience and the right to pursue his/her sense of justice. Whenever in the field of politics the party to which he has belonged, and that party's president, become destructive of his vision of what is not only right and fair but also good for our future, it is his duty to call the tune as he hears it. When that future is endangered by the present policies of the administration, it is time to act. The record of this incumbent president is a history not only of repeated violations of the key principles underlying our democracy, but of the core values of the Christian faith to which he claims commitment. Let his actions be stated candidly.

He has taken us into a pre-emptive war, misleading the country by alleging without qualification that there was an immediate threat to our safety. No weapons of mass destruction have been found despite the president's unconditional declarations that he had to pre-empt Saddam Hussein's use of weapons of mass destruction.

He engaged in this war without any workable plan to win the peace. While the ultimate outcome of this adventure is unknown, the loss of human life and the imposition of human suffering weigh heavily against us.

The effect of this adventure is to solidify the deadly opposition of radical Muslim extremists, who are currently leading of the Muslim world. He has exacerbated a dangerous confrontation, a conflict of religious dimensions.

The result of the arrogant way the war was handled is that the president has alienated our long-established allies: and it will take decades to re-establish friendly working relations with these other powers.

He acted unilaterally in pulling the nation from international treaties designed to move toward a more livable and a more just world, such as the Kyoto Treaty and the treaty creating the World Court of Law.

At the same time, he has cut the taxes owed by the richest 1 percent or 2 percent of the population, giving meaningless decreases for all the rest, and with no resulting benefit to the job market or the economy. He has presided over the largest loss of jobs since the Great Depression.

He has appointed or sought to appoint to the federal judiciary persons who hold extreme right-wing views, views that are driven by political bias and that ignore established legal precedent. (He threatens to appoint such a person to the Supreme Court.)

He has ignored or denied widely accepted scientific findings. For example, with respect to stem cell research, captured by a religious minority, he limited this research to a degree that radically restricts research leading to benefits for hundreds of thousands of persons subject to major disabilities and early death.

He has re-emphasized abortion as a political issue, when it is a purely personal decision for the woman.

He has allowed an increase in the number and type of media organizations any one company can acquire, thus permitting a further concentration of power over the news.

He has again and again reversed the regulations and policies designed to protect the environment, always adopting a policy that favors those manufacturers and industrialists whose actions have clearly fouled the air and water. He pushes for drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge and throughout northern Alaska. He is allowing the logging of our national parks. He ignores scientific findings that the world is being subjected to a warming climate change that is man-made and that could otherwise be forestalled or radically slowed down.

He has adopted or proposed regulations that endanger the safety of persons, when a Republican two-house legislature will not act in his favor. His regulations would prevent the release to the public of car safety information, such as warranty claims, consumer complaints and individual rights on safety issues; he would relax the rule on allowable coal dust in mines; he would eliminate the rule requiring employers to keep records of employees' ergonomics injuries; he has cut 77 personnel from the staff of the Occupational Safety and Health Administration; he has raised the allowable mercury content in the air.

I am, as American citizens ought to be, free to express my deeply held convictions, derived from my conscience and sense of justice, and to vote for candidates who in my opinion will act in the best interests of the country. In this, as in other life actions, my prayer is I am in line with the will of God.

-------

Robert L. Black is a retired judge of the Hamilton County Common Pleas Court and the Ohio First District Court of Appeals.




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SNAKEBITE
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More grunts with guns on the boarders IS the solution to everything, SteveG. Don't you know? work harder, not smarter is the Dubya way! yeah!!! [abducted]

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Steve G
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That's the way it works on all those internets....

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Ravenshoe
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I watched the debate last night. Speaking strictly as an impartial Canadian observer, you guys are going to get the President that you deserve. Whoever it may be.

Me? If I could vote, I'd vote for Kerry.

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He has allowed an increase in the number and type of media organizations any one company can acquire, thus permitting a further concentration of power over the news.

Ahem! Speaking about that subject:

FCC Won't Stop Airing of Anti-Kerry Film

By JENNIFER C. KERR

WASHINGTON (AP) - The Federal Communications Commission won't intervene to stop a broadcast company's plans to air a critical documentary about John Kerry's anti-Vietnam War activities on dozens of TV stations, the agency's chairman said Thursday.

``Don't look to us to block the airing of a program,'' Michael Powell told reporters. ``I don't know of any precedent in which the commission could do that.''

Eighteen senators, all Democrats, wrote to Powell this week and asked him to investigate Sinclair Broadcast Group's plan to run the program, ``Stolen Honor: Wounds That Never Heal,'' two weeks before the Nov. 2 election.

Powell said there are no federal rules that would allow the agency to prevent the program. ``I think that would be an absolute disservice to the First Amendment and I think it would be unconstitutional if we attempted to do so,'' he said.

He said he would consider the senators' concerns but added that they may not amount to a formal complaint, which could trigger an investigation. FCC rules require that a program air before a formal complaint can be considered.

Sinclair, based outside Baltimore, has asked its 62 television stations - many of them in competitive states in the presidential election - to pre-empt regular programming to run the documentary. It chronicles Kerry's 1971 testimony before Congress and links him to activist and actress Jane Fonda. It includes interviews with Vietnam prisoners of war and their wives who claim Kerry's testimony demeaned them and led their captors to hold them longer.

In the letter to Powell, the senators - led by Dianne Feinstein of California - asked the FCC to determine whether the airing of the anti-Kerry program is a ``proper use of public airwaves'' and to investigate whether it would violate rules requiring equal air time for candidates.

Separately, the Democratic National Committee filed a complaint with the Federal Election Commission on Tuesday contending that Sinclair's airing of the film should be considered an illegal in-kind contribution to President Bush's campaign.

On the Net:

Federal Communications Commission: http://www.fcc.gov

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Dolemite50
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Is anybody as sick as I am about tuning every debate's post-show when they do the fact-checking?

Bush said blah blah, is it true?
No, thats quite an exaggeration.

Kerry gave this number to the amount of jobs lost, is it true?
No, thats not true either.

Back and forth, back and forth. I'm convinced that we may never find an honest campaign again. When are we going to start holding these people accountable for their BS? Whats the point of even having a debate anymore? Its reduced to a "Who can pull more wool over the country's eyes" competition.

I think it would be VERY interesting to just let them both hang out on the podium for an extra 10 minutes after every debate and fact check them, then see how they respond to being exposed.

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SNAKEBITE
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AMEN!

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Steve G
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It seems stupid to continue with the wrong statements after they've been proved wrong. One point to Kerry, at least, for modifying his one statment concerning the amount spent on the war in Iraq.
It's a shame he didn't fact check the others.

Minus one point to W for continuing to use false facts and figgers. He jus' love them Ex-ag-jur-a-shuns.... [Wink]

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OFFBEAT
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Funny thing about how he said "ex-aj-ur-a-shuns" it was in the same belittling tone as when he said that he didn't care where Osama bin Laden was.

It's amazing to me how many people are oblivious to the Bush Administration's blatent rip off of some of Kerry's plans since the beginning of the debates.. Reading the news lately you'd think Kerry was already running things. For 3 years Bush would NOT say the words OSAMA BIN LADEN.. then when Kerry came out strong with.. We're going to find Osama Bin Laden and kill him.. Bush's been using it ever since.

I especially like how BUSH called him "Saddam bin Laden" i think in the first debate.

Truth is.. politicians will say anything to get elected... they always have. But now with the technology we have nowadays, we can hold them accountable. I WAS a Bush supporter, and defended him extrememly on this board.. but after the truth came out... I am severely against him. You CANNOT be the President Of The United States and lie to us like that. IT WILL NOT STAND!

I have no blind loyalty like alot of americans and AN members here have toward him.. if you wronged us.. that's it.. you're fired! I'm HIS boss rather than vice versa.. he's a public servant..

Even though BUSH lied about the war, used a travesty as a means to launch a war to secure his own agenda... and puts our soldiers in unnecessary harm.. Americans are still loyal to him. unbelievable.. I mean.. how do you answer for yourself. Is your pride so large, that you are unable to see the truth and admit it?

I had this conversation with my inlaw..
INLAW: "Well, if Kerry gets elected, i'm moving out of the country!"
ME: "Why's that?"
INLAW: " He scares the hell out of me."
ME: "How?"
INLAW: "He just does."
ME: "Oh. That explains it."
She's on the Republican team, and uses it as an personal indentifier. Oh! and she's in the tax bracket that Bush favors.

(So now I have another vested interest in seeing Kerry win Nov.2 lol!)

And if this is all about TAXES... Guess what? It takes money to run a country!... and if you've looked around lately the past 4 years.. things really suck. Give me back 1999 anyday!

Don't get me wrong.. I UNDERSTAND how there is an OIL SHORTAGE.. and it's a valuable resource and we can't live without it.. but going into war over it, rather than handling it diplomatically (which dumbya has PROVEN incapable of) is just ... a horrific example of human greed. And inexcusable.

If the truth of Iraq was made apparent to the American public.. no way would we have gone into war. This whole charade of war of terror is an insult to the world, those that died on 9/11, and America's history.

...it makes me understand how Hitler had so much power.. it's a sheeple affect. I don't understand this RETARDED notion of affiliating yourself with a political party.. and then adhearing to EVERY descision it makes. Like they are innfoulable.

Politicians have to be in check AT EVERY MOVE THEY MAKE!!!

...As on how to deal with lying politicians... it's already happening.. and through the means you are complaining about... fact checks. I love it. God bless the internet. BTW... You'll know which party is up to the most evil whichever party tries to regulate the internet.. but it's too late.. as much time as it takes to regulate the internet.. nerds'll come up with something else.. inter-internet... Freedom is marching in large strides now.. it's going to be harder and harder for politicians to lie to us.. and hopefully the process will continue to grow faster to the point that they are held accountable before they can do harm... now THAT would make the founders of this country proud.

And another way is to end lying politicians, is to make it profitable for politicians to be truthful rather the way it is now, where they make all their money outside of their salary, and through deceptions (cough cough bush family... saudia arabia cough cough) Either make it so presidents and politicians have a a vow of poverty or a financial cap .. like they cannot make more than X amount a year while they are president (can be a large amount).. and may not be able to make any financial deals during the Presidency that will benefit them afterwards..

So that someone pursueing the Position of the Presidency isn't doing it solely for financial gain (cough cough george bush cough cough) but rather do it as public service. I mean.. we paid George Bush sr. 400,000 a year for 4 years.. that's 1.6 million dollars.. the Saudis paid them 1.4 BILLION dollars. How can you logically explain his loyalty was our side?

If you're working under contract for Disney, and then get a freelance gig for Dreamworks.. Disney's paying you $400. But Dreamworks is paying $14,000.. whose gonna get top priority?
How many times would you call in sick to get the job done?

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Steve G
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quote:
INLAW: " He scares the hell out of me."

I've heard this sentiment from other Repubs that normally think clearly on other issues. It seems to stem from the concept that only W could've done what he did after 9/11. FIrst I find this incredible and incredibly insulting to everyone else in th USA.
My question is prior to voting foe W in 2000 if you knew that there would be a terrorist attack on 9/11 would even the GOP had made him their candidate? I really doubt it. AND yet he rose to the occasion.
I suspect Gore would've also or anyone else who had been in office.

My personal feeling about W is that his attack on Al Quiada was not typical of him. He behaved extradonarily...but he couldn't keep it up.
I think his war in Iraq is more typical. If you look at his pre-presidential dealings I think most would agree.

Looking at what he has accomplished in the last 3.75 years scares me to think of giving him another 4.

Anyone else consider the fact that Bin Laden had been relatively unsuccessful in any attack prior to 9/11? Or that he waited for years to put 9/11 into action? What was he waiting for? A Barney Fife to get into office?
There's no proving it unless Bin Laden decides to fess up, but it makes me wonder....

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OFFBEAT
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It's a completely logical theory to consider that 9/11 happened BECAUSE of Bush getting into office. Especially over the controversy at which he got in. The Bush Family has a reputation over in the middle east, and that could have made them nervous. It's as good a theory as any.. but it wouldn't explain the US Cole.

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