AnimationNation Forum

AnimationNation


Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | | search | faq | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» AnimationNation   » General Discussion   » Why can't you be friends?

   
Author Topic: Why can't you be friends?
Charles
Administrator
Member # 7

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Charles           Edit/Delete Post 
Sometimes I wonder what the hell is wrong with people in animation. I'll be the first to admit that I've got more than my fair share of faults, I own up to that and have for a long time.

But the way that some people in the biz react to what I write on the forums, it's beyond surreal. Especially when I make a point about people who don't draw or haven't worked in the industry as an artist and who are in influential positions of some sort in some way. The reaction is over the top hostility. Mostly by the people who aren't artists in the biz. The artists by and large are either in agreement with me or don't care. But that certainly doesn't seem to be the case with those who aren't animation artists but who are influential.

Such was the case recently when I received a phone call from a distinguished personality in animation with a long history of accomplishments in animation, but not as an artist.

I want to make the point before I go further, that I have a great deal of respect for this person, always featured him in a prominent light on the forums, always spoke highly of him, always was happy to see him at industry events and at gatherings with mutual friends, never gave this fellow anything but the highest regard.

But I make the distinction that they haven't worked in the business as an artist and all hell is unleashed it seems. Nothing good that went before matters, or that it ever did in the first place.

By the time the conversation was over, by the time I got him to settle down and listen to me, I think that he realized that I'm not such a bad guy, and that nothing personal was meant by what I wrote. But there was one indisputable point that I made and that he couldn't get around. He never worked in the business as an artist. He's one of the most supportive people in the industry when it comes to artists, but he never worked as an artist himself.

I reflected upon this conversation for a while, and thought back about how supportive I've been and tried to be of everyone in the biz through AN. And it amazes me that people in animation, especially those who aren't artists per se yet have a high degree of visibility, have become so incredibley hostile that all the good that was done before means nothing to them.

All that matters is that Charles posted a topic about why do we take orders from people who can't draw, which was taken completely out of context by a few of these guys and blown totally out of proportion, and all the good that AN has done becomes meaningless to them.

The interesting thing about the phone conversation I'm referring to, is that it really opened my eyes. I really saw, heard, and experienced the extent of the dysnfunction of certain aspects of our community. It underscored this dysfunction and helped me see that the problem is just as much with these guys, even moreso, than it ever could be about what I've written, the commentaries I've made, or the things I might've done or said that caused this enmity on their part.

Why can't you be friends guys? Why do you hate? What are you afraid of?

There's another subject in the works in the Side Topics Forum entitled "The Fear of Truth" that started out as an accusation against the AN staff.

I pose the challenge to you guys who have something against me personally or against AN.

Look at the truth about yourselves. Look at yourselves first.

Then ask yourselves why can't you be friends.

--------------------
 -

IP: Logged
SNAKEBITE
IE # 101
Member # 17

Icon 1 posted      Profile for SNAKEBITE   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
The doors have always been open to these people. We've always invited them to meet with us and our members to air their beefs.

I'm not surprised when these people contact you, C. Their attitudes are going the way of the dinosaur.I think they know it. Why would they bother with us if it wasn't.

I will admit I was disappointed but not surprised of the fear of truth thread. Seems like someone would of used a better example of that then defended someones blanket BELIEFS about people who believe in god, or the after life. Since the fat lady hasn't sung and all. And especially since the thread in question was not deleted but only locked to keep from silly back and forths from happening....and especially from a pro who's been reading us for years and decides to judge us like that with no real past participation on their end....AND who says that they have run a forum and knows what a thankless task it is..and yet, still wants to judge us.

Lots of disappointments and personal attacks. It's to be expected and I'm not surprised at all.

Though, For every single one of those there are 100 positive stories. Tons of positive feedback. Tons of success stories.

I dunno, I keep hearing about how fearful we are and how afraid we are from people taking virtual pop shots from afar. You want to see what emotion drives us, come to our meeting. Engage us. Participate with us. See for yourself. what we're doing takes balls. When my lady lets me have them, I use them.lol I take them out of the jar for special occasions.

I also find it ironic that we're so fearful that we don't screen posts. We let our members say whats on their mind. Even if we want to avoid conflict, we lock the post but leave it for people to read. Who else does that in our field?
If anything I'm afraid of wasting my time managing something like a message board. But I believe thats part of our uniqueness. Our members. AND I was happy to clean house of all the people who don't get our message. Life is too short.

--------------------
contact@animationnation.com
www.artbysnakebite.com
www.myspace.com/mrbite
www.redskystudio.com
www.myspace.com/redskystudio

IP: Logged
Shane Glines
IE # 87
Member # 2513

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Shane Glines   Author's Homepage   Email Shane Glines         Edit/Delete Post 
There is a serious persecution complex on this forum. From the regular Cartoon Brew topics, to the constant rehashing of old grudges and perceived wrongs. I was simply stating that it bothered me that my favorite poster on this board was constantly being chastised and censored and blamed for some kind of anticipated breakdown and chaos of these forums. I enjoy his comments and opinions, and come here specifically to read them.

I understand that he offends some of you, but I think it's unfortunate people are so shaky in their beliefs that one persons opinion can cause so much fear. Can't we all share and enjoy our different opinions? Can't we- especially as cartoonists and friends- poke some fun? I think we can all benefit from being exposed to different ideas and pov's.

I'm not the least bit afraid of anyone's personal opinion, no matter how extreme or controversial or contradictory to my own. But I am VERY afraid of the fear of opinions. It leads to very bad things.

Best wishes,
S.

--------------------
www.shaneglines.net
www.cartoonretro.com

IP: Logged
Charles
Administrator
Member # 7

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Charles           Edit/Delete Post 
Again Shane, the accusations.

Great to be part of an open forum, ain't it? Where you can accuse the admins of things that really don't apply and that they're not guilty of?

Of all the years you've been here, of all the opportunities you've had to engage with the community on AN, you choose to come here and accuse us of this? Not share your artwork, not engage in creative discussions involving animation, but in this.

I don't know what it takes to get it across to you guys that the forums are not now and never were a place for you to come here and engage in constant religion bashing and belitting. Can you grasp that truth?

Jeez man, you would think that we'd get credit for allowing it for as long as we have. If we operated as a moderated blog these topics would've never have been allowed in the first place. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

This was forming into a great topic until now.

--------------------
 -

IP: Logged
Charles
Administrator
Member # 7

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Charles           Edit/Delete Post 
Actually, I thought I was posting on the fear of truth topic, but it applies just as well.

--------------------
 -

IP: Logged
Charles
Administrator
Member # 7

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Charles           Edit/Delete Post 
Okay Shane, I'm posing a hypothetical situation to you. What if we posted a review of your artwork and called you sexist, accused you of misogeny, being disrespectful of women because you constantly feature them as nothing more than sexual objects. Would that be okay? How would you feel?

Hey, we're just being cartoonists poking fun, c'mon.

Look at what you're responding to man. Look at what you're getting upset about. I pose a question, why can't you be friends, and I'm not even talking about you, and here you are, on an open forum, taking what I posted totaly out of context and turning it into yet anoher personal, overblown confrontation that has little to do with the point I'm making, accusing us of something over an issue that you've completely misprepresented, and you sign off.

C'mon Shane. Practice what you preach. If nothing else, we're just cartoonists having fun. See the truth in what you're doing and how you're responding and be a friend. We're friends. There's no reason for you to behave like this.

--------------------
 -

IP: Logged
Pixel Pusher
Member
Member # 1558

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Pixel Pusher   Email Pixel Pusher         Edit/Delete Post 
This I find offensive, why did you and Snakebite
ask and ask people to give a web link so it can
go onto posts for some people but not all?

I rarely post much but check out AN now and then.
I was asked to give a web site to go with my posts
and I did. But there are people that do not have that. Why?

E. Allen and Hamsterbite are 2 examples.

I guess this is related because is a Discrimination.

IP: Logged
Shane Glines
IE # 87
Member # 2513

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Shane Glines   Author's Homepage   Email Shane Glines         Edit/Delete Post 
I've received such accusations, and accept that it's someone's personal reaction to my work- based on their personality, history, and beliefs. They are just as entitled to that opinion as someone who feels my drawings celebrate women. Both are valid. And I do take such comments to heart. Because of similar comments, I don't draw women as skinny as I used to and I rarely draw women smoking anymore.

My response was directed towards Snakebite's last post, because he WAS specifically addressing me, and I wanted to respond. (just because you don't mention someone by name doesn't mean it's not obvious to the rest of of us who you are speaking about- it just give you guys an opportunity to ironically accuse others of "making it personal".

and I honestly try very carefully to word my posts as politely and friendly as possible. I don't mean anyone ill will, I just thought I should stick up for Gary, since I felt what was going on was wrong, and no one else seemed willing to defend him. Is that wrong?

Best,
S.

--------------------
www.shaneglines.net
www.cartoonretro.com

IP: Logged
Charles
Administrator
Member # 7

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Charles           Edit/Delete Post 
I'll be the first in line to stick up for Gary, Shane. I'll be the first in line to stick up for him. He's one of my best friends but we have editorial standards on AN and when those standards are continuously compromised time and again we're left with no choice but to act using our best discretion.

His use of the forums to air out his personal grievances with religion are out of line with our policies. At least he got the chance to do it here for how long? How many years? You're welcome Gary!

And I'd like to add that this doesn't affect our friendship in any way. He's my friend, he'll always be my friend and I hope that I can remain a friend to him. But we have a job to do as far as moderating the forums go and the greater good of AN outweighs the editorial compulsions of one individual. Gary has a blog, although he doesn't post a link to it in his account. He can go there and bash religion as much as he wants, but when you're here, we respectfully request that you adapt to our policies. If you don't, no matter who you are or how much we love you, we'll be forced through no choice of our own to act and that means closing the thread or eliminating it altogether.

This is something that any responsibley managed forum would do. If that means we can't be friends, then that's the way it goes, but I don't see it as a reason to be otherwise.

--------------------
 -

IP: Logged
Charles
Administrator
Member # 7

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Charles           Edit/Delete Post 
And I don't think there's anything sexist or negative or deragatory about the way you portray women Shane. Your art is beautiful and so are the images you create. I see it as a celebration of women and never took the view that there was anything wrong with what you're doing.

You have the right to creative expression, as much as people have a right to critique that expression, and as others have a right to critique the critique of your creative expressions. How people see things doesn't change the nature of my friendships, if I know them and we're friends.

When people make accusations that are personal in nature, that go beyond the parameters of a solid, balanced critique, when the personal insults come out, when that line is crossed, that's when it gets ugly. I see that and have seen it happen for far too long. AN really opened my eyes as to how vicious some people in animation can be.

There's no reason for it. People agree to disagree all the time. No reason why we can't be friends none the less.

--------------------
 -

IP: Logged
SNAKEBITE
IE # 101
Member # 17

Icon 1 posted      Profile for SNAKEBITE   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
Shane-
Who offends me? Gary? His opinions do not offend me at all. I'm just expressing my opinion about his opinions. No reason to defend Gary, he was never censored, his thread was locked to keep from a needless back and forth. He made his point and was never censored. So you're just wrong on those counts.

You keep wanting to say we fear his opinions, but thats wrong as well. Most of the time I agree with his opinions but I'm man enough to know this is not the place to start religious beefs to this degree.

I will stand by what I said about you though in my last post. I don't get you're participation at all. Charles pretty much summed it up. If Gary is the only reason you come here maybe you just read his blog then because we are not here for Gary to use this as his platform to bad mouth men and women who believe in a certain version of god.


Pixel Pusher,

I have no idea what you are talking about. Can you be more specific?

We have a long list of people who submitted banners and links for our site...Which we have offered for free for our members..but the biggest factor is time. Adrian and myself donate mad time to this site and we don't get around to everything. So if you want to make it about discrimination then thats unfortunate.

but I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make so I'll leave it at that.

--------------------
contact@animationnation.com
www.artbysnakebite.com
www.myspace.com/mrbite
www.redskystudio.com
www.myspace.com/redskystudio

IP: Logged
SNAKEBITE
IE # 101
Member # 17

Icon 1 posted      Profile for SNAKEBITE   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
Maybe we should close the forum and be like everyone else in the industry. Lets just make it about our mission. Maybe giving everyone a voice like this does nothing but make us work harder. And for what? for this?

I'm sorry you guys don't feel like you're getting enough for your money...wait, this is free...ok, I'm sorry we're not working hard enough for FREE to give you FREE membership to speak FREELY while not respecting our forums policies..yeah, its our fault...and our fear. Sorry, we're just so fearful, we should lock our doors and stop promoting everyone for free...because we're too fearful to continue so fearlessly.

Yeah, you're right Shane. Thanks for coming out of the dark to participate like this. I'm so glad you finally decided to engage in a conversation. Because without you, I wouldn't realize how much fear is in my life.lol

Hey Shane I got a couple openings for our AN Night. I would love to have you as a guest. You can see the fear that runs through my veins. But all kidding aside, you'd be a great guest and maybe a little personal interaction would be good for all this fear. Thats why I organize these events. Because the internet sucks for real interaction. I'd much rather talk of such matters in person. Thats the only true way to show intent. And thats the truth. For me at least. Fear and all.

--------------------
contact@animationnation.com
www.artbysnakebite.com
www.myspace.com/mrbite
www.redskystudio.com
www.myspace.com/redskystudio

IP: Logged
Charles
Administrator
Member # 7

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Charles           Edit/Delete Post 
Regarding Pixel Pusher's comments. What are you talking about?

Maybe you're refering to our request for our members to identify themsleves as a condition for having an account.

Hamsterbite has been with us since the early days and has never tried to hide who he is from us.

E. Allen is Enoch Allen and uses his real name on his AN account.

Their account profiles are open to them as is yours. You can edit it the way you like. There's nothing offensive about us requesting that members identify themselves, especially after what we had to deal with concerning trolls and malicious anonymous accounts. Why would you find that offensive?

You guys are making mountains out of molehills.

--------------------
 -

IP: Logged
Pixel Pusher
Member
Member # 1558

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Pixel Pusher   Email Pixel Pusher         Edit/Delete Post 
I was told I needed a web link, that could be put
onto all of the posts I make.

It is at the bottom of my comment area, I was told I
needed that. Other members do not have that. Why
did I have to have that? Snakebit contacted me about it from AN.

IP: Logged
Charles
Administrator
Member # 7

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Charles           Edit/Delete Post 
What do you want to do Kevin? What do you want with AN and how do you want to utilize it? Do you want to leave anonymous comments or do you want to promote your career and what you're doing? Do you want to engage in or initiate thoughtful, professional commentary and let the world know that you're here and have something to offer or do you want to troll?

Think about it cuz when we make the shift this nonsense with accounts is going to end. It's a distraction to us. There's a bigger picture we have in mind. If you're not using AN and your AN account in a productive manner than what's the point of leaving anonymous messages.

You guys have it but you don't use it so it makes no sense for us to continue this way.

Doesn't mean we can't be friends. If AN ain't for you or what you're looking for in a forum I understand. The point I'm making is I hope you can be friends.

--------------------
 -

IP: Logged
SNAKEBITE
IE # 101
Member # 17

Icon 1 posted      Profile for SNAKEBITE   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
I never said you have to have anything in regards to signatures. I tell people it is available for their use. You don't want to promote you, then we certainly don't want you to promote yourself.


The idea of our site is to have a proactive community of creators who support and promote each other. Banners and links in signatures are a part of that sensibility.

Sorry for the confusion, but it will be clearer in the very near future for everyone.

--------------------
contact@animationnation.com
www.artbysnakebite.com
www.myspace.com/mrbite
www.redskystudio.com
www.myspace.com/redskystudio

IP: Logged
Charles
Administrator
Member # 7

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Charles           Edit/Delete Post 
So I noticed that Pixel Pusher has taken off his link.

If you guys aren't willing to stand up in the open and be somebody on AN, then the new forums aren't for you. There's plenty of other places to leave anonymous comments guys that I'm sure will work out for ya.

Thanks for participating on AN and I hope that you can still be friends.

--------------------
 -

IP: Logged
Charles
Administrator
Member # 7

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Charles           Edit/Delete Post 
I'm resurrecting this topic to underscore my point.

Why can't YOU be friends.

Recently at an event I attended, there were about 40 people there, a pretty decent crowd size wise. There was a period where news was shared. Some of the news involved another event coming up that was something that could directly benefit not only the orgnization that was sponosring this, but everyone present.

When discussion about the upcoming event was brought up, some who's influential in the group immediately started making fun of it and putting it down. I was really shocked to see this. What the hell is wrong with this guy is the first thing that came to mind. After he went on for a while, getting the crowd laughing at his put down jokes, I spoke out loudly without waiting for him to finish, claiming that it was an event worth supporting. I had to do this several times to get the guy to shut up, but the damage was done.

I could go on and describe how this relates to AN since there's some negative history with this person on our side of things, but it will be taken personally by certain people, so I won't go down that path. But this ugly incident clearly highlighted to me the dysfunction there is within the animation community on the part of influential individuals who take it upon themselves to divide instead of unite. Who bicker and belittle instead of encourage and support.

Why can't YOU be friends.

There was something else that I realized at this event. Which I realize at every event I attend dealing with animation. I can look anyone in this business in the eye with a clear conscious. Seems the same can't be said when it comes to some folks I know who apparently made the decision within themselves not to be friends.

If you have a problem embracing goodwill, look within yourself. There's no reason why you can't be friends if you'll only let yourself be a friend.

--------------------
 -

IP: Logged


 
Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | Animation Nation

Animation Nation © 1999-2012

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0