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» AnimationNation   » General Discussion   » Apologizing in advance, but AN's mission will continue

   
Author Topic: Apologizing in advance, but AN's mission will continue
Charles
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At AN Night on Tuesday I had several conversations in private with individuals and smaller groups who expressed their gratitude and happiness that someone is challenging the powers that be in the animation biz. I mentioned that perhaps I should continue to try and tone it down for the sake of some sensitive people and groups out there who become hostile and feel they are under attack by some of the topics I start, and there came an emphatic "no" from these folks. They say when we challenge conventions and conventional thinking on AN, it gives them hope and reassurance that something is being done about addressing issues that are important to the community, and that without us, none of this would come out.

Alrighty then, the people have spoken and we'll stick to our guns.

But before I go into that territory again, I want to apologize to anyone and everyone who will take personal offense at it, and to remind all that it's not personal as far as I'm concerned. The personal attacks I leave to those in animation who specialize in them.

It's not personal, it's the animation business, and a lot of people look to AN for the kind of leadership in this area they can't find anywhere else. They depend on us, so to smooth things over as much as possible, I want to say early on that I'm sorry and I apologize to everyone who will be offended at what I'll be addressing in the future. Take the suggestions I'll be offering under consideration, they'll be made with malice towards none.

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Greg B
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Good for you Charles.

If you watered down AN it wouldn't be AN it would be one of the dozens of lame venues that play it safe.

AN is a board of backbone and balls.

If others can't take a punch they should get out of the ring.

No one who speaks out on AN is a wuss and I'm glad to see that. Recently I had to do a compiling of warfare and conflict since the U.S. became a country. The amount of evil and slaughter are unfathomable. The men and women who've wreaked havoc and slaughtered 100s of millions is beyond imagination but an anatomy of the causes and effects are becoming quite clear. One of the most notable parts of that anatomy is the condoning of oppression. Looking the other way when criminals run amok. A close second is not standing up and confronting that evil and nipping it in the bud because of a fear of rejection by the crowd. Look what happened to Germany when the Nazis rose to power.

So there are people in the animation industry that are unable and/or unwilling to do the right thing which leaves it up to people like us here at AN who will go to mat fighting to the last. In this respect we're our "brother's keeper" and defender.

Eh, things could be worse I guess.

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SNAKEBITE
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Fist High!

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bigshot
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The problem last time was the imprecise way that you were speaking. You said that you weren't referring to specific individuals, then you mentioned those individuals in connection with the topic, then you turned the rhetoric on me personally.

Your mistake was falling into a common logical fallacy. It makes no sense logically to say that...

The people who are causing problems in the industry don't draw.

Therfore...

Everyone who doesn't draw in the industry is causing the problems.

Logical Fallacy: Confusing Cause and Effect

If you specifically stick to the subject you are discussing and the particular people who are responsible, without dragging in side references and old personal grudges, you won't have any problems.

Emotions are great, and they are terrific motivators. But you can't throw logic out the window and let yourself get swept away into unfair accusations.

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SNAKEBITE
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here we go again...


People who don't draw are causing the problems since they are the ones in charge they are the ones where the buck stops...but I would add that some people who do draw contribute to it....but please don't drag my statement into a personal war about who these people are..its a general statement for a reason.


AND, we do have a problem. one of which is people telling us how to be, how to act and how to draw.

Tippy toeing in our own stomping grounds is not the right approach. If that brings us problems then I say ****ing bring it! none of these people who cause problems help me one bit.

Whats unfair is the current state of things and letting people tell us how to communicate is the last type of help we need quite frankly.

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Charles
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Steve, the topic has nothing to do with you. You're not being singled out. You're singling yourself out. You're falling into the same pattern as before. Just do me and yourself a favor and cut it out. I don't want to have to mop this up again by deleting posts that are personal in nature and entirely missing the point of where I'm coming from.

THIS IS NOT PERSONAL and I will delete any and all comments that turn this into a personal matter again. Stay off of the topic if you can't handle an open discussion. Don't make it personal, that's why I'm apologizing in advance, to keep this thing from happening all over again.

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Skynet
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Yeah... interesting. What is this? What's going on here? Who let the dogs out!? Bwam... bwam... bwam bwam... Who let the dogs out!?

First, I'm only the slightest bit knowledgeable about the under workings of this animation industry thingamajizzle and yet I can understand how that is not what he meant when he said "Why do we take orders from people who can't draw?" Nowhere does he imply that absolutely all people who do not draw are causing the problems in the animation industry. That's kinda absurd. BS is changing or generalizing the meaning of his words and then telling him how he's not following logic? And to make it worse we've been knocked off the topic this was meant to be and I suggest this particular conversation is taken back to the original topic where he describes exactly who and what he's talking about:

http://www.animationnation.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=013947

Remember, please try to stay within topic as much as possible, do not hijack topics for your own benefit or whatever, and try to fully understand the topic if you are going to argue strongly against it. We don't want to lose track of the original meaning or message. And please please please refrain from personally attacking anyone that starts a topic if it is something that you strongly oppose. If you really feel the need to personally attack someone, leave them out of it and feel free to say something about me. I support everyone who posts on AN so if you are going to attack them you should be attacking me first.

Charles, you are a great individual. You are honest and put yourself out in the open for all to see which is a very rare thing in people. I respect that very much as I'm sure everyone else here does too.

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SNAKEBITE
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word and amen

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bigshot
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You guys may have a clear understanding of what you are saying, but you words are totally misleading to people outside your immediate circle. I'm not the only one who interpreted what you wrote the way I did. I'm not pointing this out to bring it all up again, but to let you know that you are not communicating as clearly as you should. It's great to rally the troops, but be careful that you are being clear about what you mean... particularly when someone is nice enough to offer you a clue instead of getting mad about it.

It helps to listen to people's questions and answer them directly. Don't use an answer as an excuse to talk about other things. I clearly asked you several times for clarification which you never gave. If you had tried to understand what I was asking at the very beginning, it wouldn't have gotten as far.

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bigshot
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Skynet, an example of the problem is my clear statement of a question on August 13, 2009 03:29 PM and the answer I was given in the following post. It would have ended there if the answer was simply, "No, I am not talking about the Board of Directors of ASIFA-Hollywood." If that was the intent of that reply, it wasn't clear from the answer I was given. The rest of the Board read it and it wasn't clear to them either. I asked a concise, patient and calm question, and a concise, patient and calm reply would have ended the whole misunderstanding right there.

Again, I'm not mad and I'm not trying to stir up trouble. I am trying to avoid misunderstandings due to lack of communication. If you won't take the time to look at it from my point of view and understand why I reacted like that, your comments are going to continue to provoke disagreements that you don't intend to provoke.

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SNAKEBITE
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Well, it's too bad you and some of your friends don't get it.

But everyone I talk too seems to get it. You and the other unknown people you talk of are the only ones I seem to hear a problem from...well, just you, but you let us know of these other people who obviously don't feel moved enough to speak on their own behalf so that speaks volumes to me.

and ya know what, thats ok. When making extreme challenges and changes in a community not everyone will get it, especially those who might be part of the problem. One thing I have learned is you can't please everyone, especially those who aren't pleasant(btw this comment is not directed at any one person, just a general statement).

but our message seems to be reaching a lot of people. We have pros come to us all the time supporting what we are doing. The students seem to dig us as well because we're offering a new way of thinking of their future because a lot of students see the problem and are not looking forward to working in the system in place just for the reasons we speak of.

So, Bigshot, you said your peace and we know how you feel about it. But AN has a core message and we know what it is and if its something else to you, fine. Live by example. But debating over semantics is a waste of time.And I for one am not going to go out of my way to find words that appeal to certain people I don't even know nor help my career at all....and I don't think Charles should either considering how much I know about the man and how much I know he works hard to please so many people when really, he shouldn't...but thats my opinion and Charles does it his way and I respect that.

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SNAKEBITE
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AND, BTW, I personally am sick of hearing Charles apologize to people who keep saying thats not enough when none of those people help the cause, help AN, support AN, pay their dues and continue to use the platform to promote themselves. I have a big beef with that and quite frankly am over it. its old, tired and it slows us down too much.

so take note.

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Charles
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Whoa whoa whoa, don't make it personal. That's not where this is coming from.

I do the best I can Steve. I assure you that at no time was I thinking about you when I made the comment about ASIFA in the other thread, it was simply a rhetorical expression about "Show me". There's was nothing personal involved. When I think of ASIFA I think of Antran. To me Antran is the head of ASIFA-Hollywood. I know he knows I meant absolutely no disrespect. It was rhetoric to support a broader point I was making and not directed at him on a personal level. As I said in the other thread, I didn't know who the ASIFA board members are, how can I be accusing them of anything when I don't know who they are, and why would I be personally attacking them.

Over 10 1/2 years I've learned to screen my words through a sifter in an effort not to personally offend people, and it doesn't matter how I phrase it, when a subject comes along that challenges the status quo, there will be people who take it personally. It's almost unavoidable because that's the way that some people want to respond to it. They will look for any minute indication in my words, and even make it up if it's not there, to support what they want to believe about what I said.

The purpose of the topic is this, it's not personal and if people take it personally, I apologize in advance. That's because I plan to continue with topics that will make some people uncomfortable, but I assure you it doesn't involve ASIFA-Hollywood or you or Antran or anyone there. I just mentioned it in passing for rhetorical purposes in that thread, nothing more.

When it gets to the point where I have to write a small novel to explain over and over again this basic point, then there's an imbalance somewhere and it has to be among the people you're communicating with. There's nothing inappropriate or personally hostile in my words and especially in my intentions. I think that becomes even more obvious when the only ones who see it that way is yourself and whoever you're in correspondence with.

I can't write any other way. I've taken it to the limit of non-offensive phrasology. Any more beyond that and I wouldn't be true to myself.

Hope that helps.

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bigshot
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Apologizing is nice, but it really isn't needed. It's a lot better to listen to what people say, understand what caused the problem and try to do your part to make it better next time. That's all anyone can ask.

I think you'd have a lot more support and a lot fewer problems with people if you didn't apologize and follow that up by saying "that's just the way I am and I won't change". Writing people off and holding grudges just perpetuates the problem- it solves nothing.

People aren't all that bad in reality. How they treat us is directly related to how we treat them. It's always interesting to put the shoe on the other foot and try to figure out how well we'd get along with ourselves if there was two of us.

The reason I'm pointing this out isn't because I'm being mean or insulting. I think you are a fine guy and Animation Nation is a great idea. I'd like to see both you and AN succeed.

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Charles
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Well let me put it this way. Let's take a look at the title of the topic.

"Apologizing in advance, but AN's mission will continue"

Another way to say the very same thing is "that's just the way I am and I won't change, so kindly don't get upset when I do what I do".

AN has been successful. For years it's been successful. It was successful in '99 with the first "Great Alliance". It was successful in inspiring the PBS picket in Hollywood in 2000. It was successful in encouraging numerous independent studios to go union. It was successful in inspiring Kevin Koch to run for president of the Guild. It was successful in being the platform that gave Steve Worth the opportunity to publicly announce the formation of the Animation Archive. It was successful in its support of Roy Disney in his war with Eisner.

Little AN has been a huge influence in the industry for more than 10 years and the industry is in denial about it.

I know that people aren't that bad in reality, yet many of them have been terrible with us. We're human beings and not immune to hurt and disapointment when people we consider friends whom we've supported in any way we can turn on us as viciously as they have. It takes away the desire to have anything to do with them, the damage is too deep.

And speaking of apologies, I think it would great if just once, these people who've been as rotten as they have to us over the years apologized themselves for the way they've been and what they've done and said. I admit my mistakes, I've done it here and in person. I apologize to cover anything that I might've missed in trying to establish peace but unfortunately it's not enough and I'm afraid it never will be.

I'm not looking for anyone's approval or any kind of endorsement from the haters. I'm perfectly comfortable in my own skin and I can look anyone in the industry square in the eye. I'm just trying to continue to defuse the personal thing as much as I can in the best way I know how, so I'm apologizing in advance cuz AN will continue to do what it does.

And I thank you for your words of support, they're appreciated and mean alot. Good luck and God bless.

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E. Allen
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Both you, Charles, and Steve mean a lot to me. Both you guys have been in my life for quite a few years now and have contributed greatly to my development as an artist.

The parties Steve's referring to (and Snakebite briefly touched upon them) are silent, communicating it seems only to non-ANers about their negative sentiments towards AN and Charles. Their actions imply cowardice. They fear something which should not be feared but embraced. They should step forward, air out their grievances once and for all, and stop sulking in the shadows.

If these guys want to see something change, of if they're not happy with the way things currently are, complaining in private is not the way to go about it, and it even indicates that even they aren't confident enough about the legitimacy of their concerns to allow them to stand up to public scrutiny.

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bigshot
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The people who emailed me recently aren't haters. They aren't creating whispering campaigns. They aren't trying to undermine anything. They're people who came to the first AN meetings like I did and participated in the forums like I do, but just didn't like seeing other well meaning people being driven away. For them, the idea of a place for the animation community to exchange ideas wasn't worth the repeated explosions of anger and ripples of grudge posts that followed each one. So one by one, they quietly drifted away. Every battle had its quiet fall out afterwards. The emails I received weren't saying bad things about anyone. They were simply saying that they were sorry about the way I was being treated.

Animation Nation can't represent the animation community if anger and old grudges are allowed to alienate everyone in it. If it's as painful as you say it has been, and it isn't serving the animation community in the way you originally intended it to, it's time to consider a different approach.

The idea of Animation Nation is great. The execution of the idea needs some work. I'm simply offering a suggestion as a part of the community. I may be the only one left who is strong enough to do that.

My suggestions are...

1) Forgive all the past grudges and never bring them up again.

2) Try to include as many people who represent the animation community as possible.

3) Sit back and let the community create. It's what we do best.

If you did number 1, 2 and 3 would naturally follow.

The strength of the animation community lies in "community". You're trying to control it and be the strength all by yourself. That 's going to cause you nothing but pain.

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bigshot
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One more thing...

Why am I bringing this up?

I think it's pretty obvious to everyone that I love animation and I've worked hard to further it in both commercial and charitable ways. I'm proud of my accomplishments, I'm able to stick up for myself, I don't take insults personally and telling the truth doesn't make me fear for my job. I can stand up and call a spade a spade without being afraid.

I may be the only one left who can say this.

I'm not angry. I'm not holding any grudges over past wrongs. I'm not ********ting. I'm calling it like I see it. Respect that or get angry at me. It doesn't matter. I've honestly spoken my mind.

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SNAKEBITE
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You do realize you're saying exactly what we're saying?... don't you?

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bigshot
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One of the major problems with Animation Nation is that Charles' repeated retelling of all of his perceived slights is driving people away. It isn't "educating" anyone. It's axe grinding, and it doesn't do him, the kids or the organization any good. If he would look forward instead of using the past as a stick to hit people over the head with, he would enjoy a lot more support from the industry. We all know that participation in AN has dropped considerably in the past few years. A lot of people who contributed a lot of great posts in the past are long gone. It's down to a handful of people now. There's a reason for that and it should be addressed. Denying that there is a problem and saying it is all other people's fault isn't going to solve it.

There's bridge building to be done, and it's already been allowed to be put off much too long.

I've been involved with this project from the very beginning. I would hope that I would at least be listened to if I point out a problem and a possible solution, not just dismissed with a wave of the hand and told that it's my problem, not yours. I'm not the only one who has said what I'm saying here. I'm just the only one who cares enough to stick around and not write the whole thing off.

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Shane Glines
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Steve is right, and I wish someone would listen. Every time I come on here and read a new thread that brings up everyone else who did some kind of perceived wrong in the past, I shake my head and leave.

And I hesitate to even mention this, because it seems that to even bring up concerns like this brands one as the enemy.
I've been on the site for several years, I believe in it and have supported it by participating on the forums in the Independent Economy.

Believe me, I have huge sympathy for Charles' job- I gave up on running forums years ago, because it's a no-win. I realized that I didn't have the patience or temperament for baby sitting.

But unlike Charles, I didn't have a message that needed to get out- and It's frustrating to see that the important ideals behind this site getting buried by rehashing the same old grudges and the constant hostility to even tempered disagreement.

You have to understand that the type of behavior that Steve mentions does indeed make many of the people who are still here nervous about participating and especially about expressing a contrary opinion.
Thanks,
S.


[You're making it personal. I deletd the names you mentioned because you're making this personal.]

[ August 29, 2009, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: Charles ]

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bigshot
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Thanks, Shane.
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Charles
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You're the one who keeps bringing this up Steve, imagining that I'm slighting somone like ASIFA's board of director when there wasn't any slight at all. You're the ones who can't even accept a simple "I apologize let's move on." You keep making a ridiculous soap opera out of something that doesn't exist, and everyone of those names you dropped Shane are people who completely overreacted to what was going on here, just as you guys are doing now. And they don't want my story with this crowd being told, or my experiences with them shared? Why don't you guys stop and think for just a second about how this looks to the rest of the community. You keep making this about me, well take a good look at yourselves. Read what E. Allen posted above and get a clue.

Those names you mentoned Shane aren't who I'm talking about. You guys have no idea because you have no idea what's been going on behind the scenes for years and years.

I'll address this soon. Meantime, get a grip and give it a break. You're blowing this all out of proportion again.

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bigshot
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You were mistaken about the nature of what people say about Animation Nation outside of your earshot. As a friend of yours, I was letting you know what was really being said. Shane stepped up and confirmed it. Shane mentioned a few names. I could name more. These aren't bad people. They just didn't like the way they were treated. I can understand how they feel, because I've been there too. But I keep coming back. You can tell me that there's no problem. But there's a pattern here, and if you don't recognize it and try to deal with it, it's going to continue.

There's no need to save up your comments for a speech on the subject. Enter into an honest dialogue with the people who care enough to offer you a friendly suggestion.

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Charles
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This is silly.

Steve, thanks but I don't care. I don't care what they're saying. This is new? This is something new that people are saying bad things?

I'm sorry I started this topic. It was meant as a gesture of goodwill and people out there can't even accept that. Bad idea.

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