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» AnimationNation   » General Discussion   » Why do we take orders from people who can't draw? (Page 3)

 
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Author Topic: Why do we take orders from people who can't draw?
bigshot
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quote:
how do we get people interested in contributing to our economy?
By respecting the wide range of talents involved in making animated films, and building alliances with everyone who cares about building and growing the art form. Contentiousness and factionalization are good ways to marginalize both yourself and your cause.
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SNAKEBITE
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I agree, its time to stop pigeon holing creatives as non business types and only giving power, control and the big bucks to people who can't draw.
Time to respect the talent.

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ColorInAble
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I haven't read any of this thread...
Why do we take orders from people who can't draw?

The answer is simple... They have money and are willing to exchange it for the service of drawing. Law of supply and demand...

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bigshot
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quote:
Time to respect the talent.
Musicians, voice actors, editors, directors, story people, producers, video editors, sound effects people, character animators, designers, layout artists, riggers, compositors, merchandising people, sheet timers, marketing people, effects animators, production coordinators, sound recordists, IT technicians, modelers, color stylists, assistants, etc...
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SNAKEBITE
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ColorInAble,
they don't "have" money, they get it...artists can get the money too if they didn't buy into the myth that they can't be business people.

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ColorInAble
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Now I've read, and it's this drawing ability vs. production authority thing again...

Everything I want to say has been said, so I'll just sum up...

Some here at AnimationNation want the movie producer / studio head / honcho #1 / whatever you want to call that entity who is in charge, to have enough skill and understanding to be able to do your job, so they will have empathy and reality as they deal with you in managing your work load....

You know, this same thread is on the web site ScriptNation, and on AudioDialogueRecordistNation, and on MarketingNation, and on BudgetManagingNation and on ToyDesignNation. And the people at these sites complain about how their boss couldn't write or record or market or budget or design or whatever, their way out of a paper bag! Just like here...

And everyone has their list of the Writers or the Audio Engineers or the Accountants, etc... who rose up though it all and ran/created a studio successfully. Just like here...

Well, it takes all those "Nations" and more to make a movie! It would be nice if the "King of the Kingdom" could plow as well as any surf, and conjure as well as any alchemist. But, if the King spent all his time studying and experimenting to be that Alchemist, he wouldn't have time to lead his troops in battle, or cut babies in half, or any of those other Kingly duties.

So I guess the answer for the people who feel that their boss has to be as tallented and versed as they are is...
"Don't work anywhere where the boss has even a shred less talent than you in every aspect of production that you have been hired for!!!

You might want to apply that same standard to their boss, and their boss, all the way up the chain to the "Highest Power" at the studio. (At Universal, that is the Board of Directors at General Eletric)

And you probably shouldn't give a crap if that boss can't manage the Audio crew...
Your lip sync will LOOK BEAUTIFUL, even if you can't hear the words on the audio track...

And... On the other side...
Everyone should get respect when they work...

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ColorInAble
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Snake, I never bought into the myth that creators can't run the joint.

But, let's take the example of You. Snake, you may draw well, and you may write well, and you may be good at raising and managing money. But when you get you get your money, with your pitch from your script, and you hire your artists to start your movie, I bet some guy at SoundRecordistNation is going to be complaining about how his boss, the owner of Snakebite Productions can't make a decent 5.1 mix, much less the 7.1 mix that his fund raising deal (the one you signed) calls for.

And I hope your character/environment/etc... designs are such that the toy designers (the mold makers and such) like them, and you... Otherwise, that "Mega Snake Gun" might not stay in the action figures hand very well...
Then, maybe that's in the design, and you'll sell more when the first ones are lost. [Wink]

This being the creator and the owner is a great idea, but if you are the creator and the owner, then you become the one who can't draw, or write or whatever, as well as those who you hired to do some of those things.
The shoe is on the other foot for you in this example Snakebite...
And what are the audio guys writing about your mix ideas on SoundRecordistNation?
I hope they are saying nice things...

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SNAKEBITE
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certainly by now I have learned that you don't listen to the haters ...nor the lovers...you do it because its in you.

This isn't about hating. Thats a myth too. this is about the proclamation of creator empowerment. ya know? we're talking about a paradigm, one way and also being open to other ways as well.

Besides, I've already been hated upon, mostly by whats considered my peers. not to take away from the love, but neither really matter when realizing my personal truth...

but again, this isn't about the hate...I see enough room for all. there's huge need for content, so you don't have to go to the usual suspects to produce...and from personal experience I have found that I'd rather work with/for someone with artistic abilities.

I know I had to learn many aspects of production on my quest to call the shots, so I expect no less from someone above me in the chain of command.

I don't find anything wrong with that.

This is a personal preference but is is also the spirit of AN's core message.

I think if we held higher standards we wouldn't be where we are as a community and dare I say as a country, a nation.

and as far as every other aspect of animation production, I think once you have been trained in one set of artistic fundamentals it pretty much applies across the board. You may not know the specifics of each craft, but fundamentally you can communicate more effectively then someone with no artistic foundation.

thats just me,lol...but I happen to know others think like me too.

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SNAKEBITE
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also, with resources one can put the right people in charge while still being the main control. its doable. the dynamic in productions are evolving. nothing is standard anymore, the kids are remixing all of our ideas, its not even about if it should happen, its when it happens and its gonna happen big.

I'm just pointing out what I'm seeing really. it may sound like preaching but its more like a news report.

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Thunder Man
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Shifting gears, just a little.. I watched ABC's "Shark Tank",
a show where they have 5 big-time investors willing to put down their
money for people who want their funding to begin/start/continue
their businesses.

The show is instructional in that it clearly displays the mindset of the business investors as simply this: Will This Make Money For Me?
Their focus is, very clearly, centered on money. It wasn't really clear on the show if they excluded every other consideration, but the emphasis on money came thru very clearly.

It shows a totally different type of thought process that is very, very different from that of a creative person.. and as more and more artists enter into various businesses for themselves, I've no doubt that they will encounter this mindset again and again, so it's useful to know what you'll be dealing with if/when an artistic/creative person has to deal with persons like this.

A couple of points on the show...3 of the "sharks" only gained their
multimillion $ status by selling their businesses to other concerns.
To my mind, that's kinda not the same as building up your business to where it is actually earning/creating that kind of money year in and year out; it just means some organization thought that it was worth big bucks, and the person took the money and got out. I could be wrong, but I think there's a difference between buying a business for X amount and
building UP a business so it grows to a point making X amount..

Also, the "sharks" claimed to be only concerned about money.
Their actions during the show supported that. But I found it interesting
that when it came to a business that consisted mostly of
created materials, the sharks made a point of gaining "ownership"
of all created materials; no deal could possibly be made unless
all ownership rights went to the "sharks".

It kind of pointed out to me...

That which is created has great value, great monetary value.
Ownership of such created assets must be obtained and held.
The created material is of such importance that any dealings must take
the created material first, in front of everything else.


It was also shown to me...

Those who create the material must be separated from the material
they create in order to secure any/all monies gained by exploiting
said material.

An interesting show...lol

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SNAKEBITE
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I watched some of that show and I thought I was gonna like it...but its a myth that you have to give away ownership to get venture capitol...this show is perpetuated that myth backed by a network who obviously wants fools to believe you don't own your ideas....

But if a investor is willing to give me a million dollars to start my project then I see nothing wrong in
making partners with said investor. but giving away
all ownership would take more money than that.

Its a good show in the sense that it gives you an idea of how some people would like the dynamic to be in business..but its not the foundation of all business dynamics.

New types of investors popping up left and right. Some of which look at 2 million dollars as interest from one of their real investments. ya know.

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Charles
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I saw part of that show recently. Thunder Man, your conclusions are right on the money, so to speak.

The way the industry is changing, I don't see the need for content creators to follow the path of what's gone on before. I read comments on a musicians' site a few weeks ago that really hit home as to how content creators are controlling their content nowadays. They were educating some younger guys about how the music industry used to work. The record companies owned everything. Today, more and more musicians are in control of their songs and it truly is a new day and age.

If you can draw and you can design, produce, write, animate, direct, etc... there's no reason why you would need someone else to do these things for you unless you wanted to hire someone to cover these aspects of your project or you needed the extra help. You're in control. Even if there's no money, you're in control cuz you can create content in one form or another whether it's funded or not. If you don't draw, or aren't coming from that side of the equation, you'll always be in need of artists for your project if you're working in animation.

The difference between then and now, is that people who'd appear on a show like Shark Tank to pitch their animated idea with the plan that they'd get the artists to see their project through, wouldn't be artists. Today, it's the artists that are pitching with the idea of hiring production personnel to work for them.

And if these business guys offered a deal that wasn't up to snuff, artists still have the option of doing it themselves or with a crew they assembled and taking it to New Media and all that entails, including the opening up of distribution. Whereas non-artists would still be in a position of having to hire artists to do the production for them.

The shift will become even more pronounced as time goes on.

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Charles
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The reference to the new TV show 'Shark Tank' made by Thunder Man in his post above, whereby inventors, entreprenuers, etc are invited to pitch their ideas to potential investors, got me thinking and reminded me of a visual metaphor that I used in creating my school's mascot back in 1998 when we got started.

I was looking for a fun way of communicating to our students and the community at large one of the basic philosophies of the new school. I wanted to communicate that artists are the top of the food chain in the art and our industry, not the middle or the bottom, and the best way for me to do this was to come up with a shark character.

In fact, the character of ArtShark was created when a friend who got upset with me because I started my own thing, called me a shark and falsely accused me of all sorts of things when I broke away from his school. So I took a negative and turned it into a positive. I said to myself, being called a shark is actually a compliment, and then went ahead and created a character based upon what was supposed to be an insult.

Thus...

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One of the beneficial things about this show is that artists can see first hand what business is about at its core. It's not personal, it's business. In our business where the foundational aspect of it is drawing, challenging someone in the business to draw, especially if they're in a position of authority, is only natural. Making a personal issue out of artists rising up has been a ploy, consciously or not, of control over artists. Making it personal against artists as a means of manipulation has been a longstanding strategy used against us not just in animation, but in virtually every aspect of industry and commerce where the artist is at the heart of the business.

When we start to envision ourselves as the top of the food chain, when we become the sharks in the tank, our empowerment threatens the entire system of control over us. Artists everywhere have talked about and dreamed of the day when we would be in control of our art and professional destinies, and that dream becomes more of a reality with each passing day.

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E. Allen
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quote:
But if a investor is willing to give me a million dollars to start my project then I see nothing wrong in making partners with said investor. but giving away all ownership would take more money than that.
Hey Snakebite, I was thinking along those lines $2M for an idea, I come up with another, better one--BAM!

The better idea's already fully funded.

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PHIL
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Charles,
I think it goes further than being able to draw, but simply understanding basic film making:-story, art direction and cinematography and making sure the resources are available to achieve it.

It is not just exclusive the world of animation.

Working in live-action at the moment it won't surprise you to learn many script writers and producers, or more recently executive producers- who ARE the script writer/editors, that have no concept of what it takes to make the production work. I think it is more common in this business for a producer to be fast tracked to the top without the skills and knowledge they should have. They will ultimately be earning the most but can surround themselves with the right people to hide their flaws. Unfortunatley we don't have that luxury. If as artists we didn't show the skills we were hired for we'd be straight out on the street. Producers put themselves in a position where that could never happen.

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Greg B
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Thunderman, thanks for that post! It's really refreshing.

I've been trying to explain on AN for years the business end of business.

That there are people who invest their money for one purpose only and that's to increase their profits. Tehy're not concerned with building up an art form, they have investor's too.

When a company is successful because it's been built up and is equitable, the covetous nature of mankind makes the sale of that company easy. It's sort of like the old saying "The grass is always greener in the other guy's yard."

People build businesses and sell them all the time. It's business. No more, no less.

Get successful and you will get offers to sell what you've succeeded at.

Investors in the arts are interested in making money and/or furthering some agenda. Example being some governments like Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark, invest in their artists. Why? because history has shown them that doing so reaps a mountain of rewards. Invest in creativity and you win. They make money by default not by intent. The same with Japan, they mix business with art and do fantastic.

In the U.S. however we're not ethnocentric. We're made up of all the people around the world who come here, make money and send it back to foreign lands.

We're such a bigoted lot here in the U.S. we marginalize ourselves across social, political, religious lines. We're a nation apart and we rip off art.

As much as it may be painful, we artists have to have the basic business sense and act on it.

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bigshot
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To be honest, business bores me. I love animation.
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SNAKEBITE
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So show us your sketch book!


in addition...

The business excites me, cuz once I can be in more of control of that then I have more control over how I create. If you want to see your vision happen you have to do both. Lots of stuff about the creation of art I don't like. prepping a piece of art. there's lots of steps before the creative parts at times. especially working digitally. but you have to do it in order to see the final product, the art and the artistic process.

Business should be looked at like that. Not as something boring. It can take away time from creating, but freedom is finding our one true burden. ya know? you have to do the **** you don't wanna do in order to do the stuff thats fun.

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bigshot
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Show me your resume of professional experience in the animation business.
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SNAKEBITE
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no problem.thats easy bro. its in my signature, along with my art.

www.artbysnakebite.com

http://www.artbysnakebite.com/bio.html

my bio hasn't been updated in a bit.
here's an updated resume. It's all over the place
as far as experience. I have worn many hats but its easy to see I'm still a player in animation. My varied experience supports my strong feelings about industry reform and the true power of the artist.

...actually, this resume is old too, I'm currently doing a mini series for DC comics plus two animation productions that are still in development....not to mention being apart of facilitating AnimationNation so its members have a platform to be seen and something they can use to self promote. People like you.


EMPLOYMENT HISTORY
-Red Sky Studio 06/06-Current
Creative Director and Tattoo Apprentice

-Titmouse Inc. 07/08-01/09
Digital Background Painter
GIJoe Animated Feature RESOLUTE

-Labeltex Usa: 10/06-5-07
Designer
Hardware, Accessories and Packaging

-Nagual Designs: 5/02 - 01/07
Designer, Art Director
custom leather clothes and
jewelry / T-shirt and web design.

-Scanty : 5/04 - 06
Designer,
Pajama textiles.

-Von Dutch : 5/04 -10/04
Designer,
2005 Von Dutch Surf Line

-Archangel Studios: 3/00 - 8/05
Designer, Art Director, Digital Painter
and 2D/3D integrator,
The Red Star comic book series.

-The Animation Academy: 10/99 -2/03
Photoshop Instructor

-Vicarious Visions: 5/02 - 10/02
Color Designer / Digital Painter,
Crash Racing Two (Video Game).

-VH1: 10/98-6/99:
Color Stylist / Digital Painter,
Animal Tracks, animated series

-McFarlane Productions: 10/98-12/98
Color Stylist / Digital Painter, Music Video.
KORN "Freak on a Leash"
animated segments.

-Matinee Entertainment: 9/96-9/98
Color Stylist, Television Animation.
Animated series(26 episodes),
KAMPUNG BOY. UNICEF animated
commercial spot , "War Babies".

-Verotic comics: 9/95-8/96
Color Stylist, Comic Publications.

-Image comics: 1/93-11/95
Color Stylist, Comic Publications.

FREELANCE CLIENTS
FASHION
-Good Art HLYWD
-True Religion
-Von Dutch
-Joie Jeans
-Urgent Gear
-Eisbar Clothing
-Nagual Designs
-King Baby
-Scanty
-Rimonita
-Dirt Custom Leather
-Skkin Custom Leather
-Evolve

MULTI-MEDIA
-Dreamworks
-Graham Morris Animation
-Barr Entertainment
-Klasky Csupo
-VH1
-Lewis Color
-Olyoptics
-Atlas Pictures
-The Animation Academy
-Chaos Comics
-Spiritsmanship Prod.
-Sarka Lmt.
-D.C. Comics
-Event Comics
-Saban
-MGM
-Sony
-Brand X Design
-Humanoids Publication
-Terrorbyte
- RPI Distribution (99cent Store)

AWARDS

-ANISE 1999 International Film Festival
-Best New Animated Television Series, "KAMPUNG BOY".(Honored at various International Film Festivals and permanently archived at The Museum of Television and Radio.)

-1998 Chicago Television Festival
-Silver Plaque Winner, "War Babies", UNICEF commercial spot.

-1999 MTV Music Video Awards
-KORN "Freak on a Leash", Best Rock Video, as well as eight additional nominations.
-2 Grammys for KORN'S Feak on a Leash animated video

- 5 Eisner Nominations for The Red Star Graphic novel

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www.myspace.com/mrbite
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www.myspace.com/redskystudio

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SNAKEBITE
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so, I showed you mine...

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E. Allen
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Damn, holy **** Snakebite! I didn't know you had that much experience!

I should've known, but for some reason, I assumed you straight freelanced your way to autonomy! Impressive on all counts.

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SNAKEBITE
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Most of that work is at a Freelance status, which works out for everyone involved. 13 years freelance. only a couple of those gigs were long term and/or instudio positions.

I sell myself every week practically so you learn to roll with the punches and keep fluid. Because of that my path went many directions. Often I find I have left out a few big jobs in my resume just because I forget. I've also been blessed where I have met people in each world that treated me like an apprentice to some degree giving me more insight then your average joe.


the journey continues to be very revealing.
especially about myself and what I'm capable of...it usually is the exact opposite of "can't"..it's usually just a matter of a choice.

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Charles
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I cleaned this up cuz people here are missing the point, turning into something personal again.

The one challenge that's not being met, that's repeatedly not been met even when brought up in other topics in the past, is the people who don't draw in our industry yet claim some sort of authority, have never met the challenge of showing us their artwork. Only one person in the past did and it was enough to convince us that they needed serious art training. Since then, nada.

It's one thing to submit a resume. Anyone can do that. Try submitting a portfolio or a demo reel of your own personal work along with a resume. That's the essence of all of this.

It's changing folks. With every passing day artists are breaking away from old models, creating new ones in the process. In the future, we can expect to see more and more situations develop where artists are running the show as it should be, as it was in the beginning.

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bigshot
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I would suggest that if anyone wants to question my abilities, they shouldn't be surprised if I question theirs.
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Charles
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What abilities of yours are being questioned? That you can't draw? That you can't even post your resume even when others do after you challenge them?

You've made this personal and twisted what people are saying since you started on this topic. You obviously feel threatened. You can't meet the challenge Steve, so you become defensive and attack by turning things personal.

This is an important topic. If you persist in making it personal I'll delete comments to keep it on track.

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SNAKEBITE
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AND, I answered the challenge BTW. Resume is nothing, check the links to see the art that backs the resume...and again, i showed you mine, Bigshot.

I'm certainly not surprised when people question my abilities. Thats my job. I go look for work, people question my abilities and I show them whats up in order to get the work...even when they ask for a sample page, I show them. I never take questioning my abilities personal,
thats the name of the game.

but thats my personal issue with the people in control. it doesn't go both ways. you question their abilities and they become evasive and they make personal attacks on your character...even though I always answer their challenge, they can't answer mine.

SO show us your abilities, cuz I question it.

Questioning abilities to me is a sign of a healthy community. Expecting people to rise to the challenge is a sign of a progressive industry.

So go ahead, question my abilities. just make sure you check the links first.

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bigshot
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If you insist on parroting idiotic rhetoric which questions the value of the contributions of people who work in animation who aren't professional artists, I'll continue to take it personally. If you want me to treat you with respect, try treating me with respect.

I'm very tired of the attempts at passive aggressive manipulation. It's just these sorts of attacks that have undermined the credibility of Animation Nation and have made people write you and Charles off as mean-sprited, jealous and petty. You're his friend. You should be supporting him, not enabling his weaknesses.

You should work together to build, not tear down. Every time someone gives you a clue on this, you turn your sights on them and go on the attack until you drive them off. One more name for "Nixon's Enemies List". I'm not going to do that. I'm going to stay right here and remind you what Animation Nation was *supposed* to be- a place to support and encourage people who make animated films. It sure as hell wasn't intended to be a forum for manic axe grinding and passive aggressive character assassination.

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SNAKEBITE
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wow

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SNAKEBITE
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"Passive–aggressive behavior is passive, sometimes obstructionist resistance to following through with expectations in interpersonal or occupational situations."

or

"Of, relating to, or having a personality disorder characterized by habitual passive resistance to demands for adequate performance in occupational or social situations, as by procrastination, stubbornness, sullenness, and inefficiency."

You have a long way to go with your issues,and your understanding of things like being passive aggressive but I'm happy that you got to a point where you can at least admit you're taking this personal.thats progress at least.

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and before anyone tries to rewrite the mission of AN,Animation Nation is totally about the empowerment of the artists and challenging the people that up till this point have control over the industry.

this thread's title is consistent with AnimationNations message at its core. don't get it twisted ladies and gentlemen.

But I agree there is no place for personal attacks on this site, thats why I believe Charles and myself make comments on a general and not personal level....but I for one will not tippy toe in my own stomping grounds so if someone wants to make it personal then bring it....my portfolio backs me.

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Skynet
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I wasn't planning on entering this conversation at any point but I would at the least have to also say... wow. Mainly because it's hard for me to even imagine Snakebite as being passive aggressive. For anyone that really knows him that would be hard to take seriously. He usually tells you what he thinks right from the start and that's a very different thing altogether. I sense a bit of a contradiction here. If he was passive aggressive we'd probably hear from him a lot less and see that his posts are not being straight forward most of the time, but hasn't it been the opposite of that? Then, how is someone that is passive aggressive going to go on the attack and drive anyone off? I'm trying to imagine a passive aggressive individual getting their axe ready so they can jump into battle while avoiding direct confrontation at the same time.

I thought this topic was about the non-artist execs that are ruining the industry, and driving artists away in the process. Isn't it specific and/or only about a certain kind of individual or possibly group of people? And not about the non-artist people that help the industry, or work hard to make an animation successful. If I'm wrong or missed something feel free to let me know. I'm not very educated on how the real animation world works. I'm an artist but my strength is predominantly in music.

The same thing has obviously been happening in music for a long time though. Take a look at the industry and how much crap is pumped out solely for making money. The big music industry is only about money, and not music at all. It seems like they don't know what they are selling anymore and they don't care. The real original and talented artist are on their own, forced to do their music on their own. Fortunately there are ways these days to make it easier for real artists to get exposure.

I just got back from an audio gig actually. I scored a corporate video for Microsoft. I can't show it because it is for internal eyes only and I signed an NDA. I can't talk about the content in any way. If I showed it here they would probably own me. Anyway, it was an insane experience. I had 4 "execs" or high level people telling me what to do at the same time and they were each telling me something totally different. One of them was the president of this particular branch of MS. That doesn't include the other people who were creating the video such as the director and the producers. I was there for 8 days and had a dozen people telling me what to do. Every single day I scored the video exactly how they asked me to and every day I started over again because someone didn't like it. On the very last day I pulled it altogether somehow and they loved it. I have no idea how I pulled it off when I consider what I had to go through. The process was ridiculously insane. The main thing I am trying to get across is that I had non-artists (and "artist" too) telling me what to do the whole time, changing their minds 10 times a day, making the situation hellish and in fact killing the other potential that was there (on the video side too). I think there is a similar element here because I could ask myself the same question. Why was I taking orders from people who can't compose music? Especially when they never seemed to know what they wanted at any time. In the end after all the trouble I had to force myself to focus and finish it all on my own, and it finally worked.

OK, sorry for dragging this topic around a little, so why don't we get back to the original question on "Why do we take orders from people who can't draw?"

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Charles
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I've resigned myself to the fact that trying to conduct a rational discussion with you Steve is an exercise in futility.

Here's an email I got this afternoon which pretty much sums it all up.

"Is everyone working in entertainment as F'ed up as the animation industry is?"

My response was a resounding "I don't know!"

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Charles
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There was no ill will, no hostility, no personal grievances, nothing even remotely along those lines in my motivation to start this topic. If my word isn't good enough for you Steve, too bad. That's the best I can do and all I have to offer.

You continually push us away, dude. There's nothing we've ever been able to do to get you to drop your attitude over the years. No kindness we can show, no gesture of respect, no effort of support. Nothing.

And that's the last of it. Closing the book on anything that comes off as personal. That goes for everyone. Keep it lucid and focused cuz anything other than that will go. Don't waste your time with personal replies. They'll be deleted as soon as I see them.

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Because artists want to believe in other people, I think. We're humble for the most part and when someone says "this is the way its done" we want to believe them. fortunately most of us snap out of it and realize at some point that they are fullof **** and its only one way to do it, not THE way.

Artists also believe it when their peers say, we are not of business mind...**** that, I know better than that. I may not want to count beans, but I know how and thats the only way I know how many beans I'm dealing with and then I can delegate the beans accordingly...

Most artists I respect are way smart. they know every aspect of what they do. They challenged themselves to know more.

People question our abilities everyday and we have to prove ourselves every job. Of course I'm basing it off my experience but thats all I have.

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Charles
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Okay, I'm going to try and reconnect.

Check out Joe Pearson's upcoming feature film, "War of the Worlds: Goliath".

Joe Pearson is an artist. He worked in the industry for many years as an artist. Coming in to work, sitting at his cubicle if he was lucky enough to have one, and drawing. Look at what he's doing now.

Here's the AN topic:

http://www.animationnation.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=013962

Yet another outstanding example of what's happening in the world of animation among artists. And they're doing it better than their non-drawing counterparts would of a decade ago. No offense no offense no offense. Feel like I have to constantly post disclaimers with every comment I make.

If you're an artist, you're in a much better position to operate at a higher level in animation with the worldwide industry that's forming up. Artists hiring artists is a pretty sweet scenario, more appealing than what the community's been struggling with before.

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dermot
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I suggest reading "starting point"....partly a collection of essays about the struggles of Miyazaki along the way to building Ghibli...and partly just a collection of his thoughts.

As Miyazakis mother said to him....your actions...over time....reveal who you really are.

I think Animation artists generally don't like to fight that fight...maybe we want to live in some happy fantasy and there are plenty of people who can exploit that. Producers also don't like to fight as far as I can see....personel issues and story debates seems to be emotionally upsetting to them too.....and I think they too opt for emails and "quiet" fixes.

What GREAT directors might be able to do is realize that producing can be just as creative as Directing....and perhaps even more rewarding. You would still be involved in even more creative decision- making ....but your influence would result in much better staff relations and product.

The real problem then is to earn the respect and trust of someone who might be willing to invest in animation and help battle the previous establishment to get you decent distribution and legal help.As someone at Teletoon up here in Canada said to me....they would love to see better shows....but their hands are tied by their corporate partners ( read between the lines folks )

If anyone knows such a person ....someone with say $10 million in mad money to play with introduce me heheheh....I have a lot more to say on the subject !

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SNAKEBITE
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you're right. most people don't wanna fight. Some of them are filled with lies and myths about what they are capable of. I keep hearing from certain people in the industry that artists don't make good business people, but I keep meeting artists who run successful businesses...for instance, Sideshow Collectibles. Thats a place where there four partners, half are artists the other are business. they both let each other do their jobs. with great results.

So it is about choice. Who do you believe, the nay sayers or your heart?

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Charles
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This topic came in at #2 for all of 2009. It was the second most widely followed topic for the year, outdone only by one that was initiated by Don Bluth. Here's a link to the Top Topics of 2009 for your reference:

http://www.animationnation.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=014312

The other day after dermot bumped it up, someone brought the subject of this topic to my attention wanting to know if the person who positioned themselves as adversarily as they did in the thread was a 12 year old kid. I said no, it's an adult.

In fact, in my second post, the second post of this topic, I stated that this wasn't a personal attack against anyone, it was just an observation on my part. If anything, I intended the topic to be something that would motivate artists to get involved more.

What's unfortunate, is that no matter how much goodwill I show, or how many times I explain to folks that it's not personal, throughout the course of AN's history, it seems to always become a personal issue when there's people out there who feel threatened by a challenge like this.

The fact of the matter is that in the LA community, people who can't draw are positioned all over the biz in one way or another as some sort of authority. It doesn't mean that they're bad people, and I'm not a bad person for pointing that out, although there's folks who would have you believe that.

The biggest impediment to us getting along is ourselves. We tend to see executives as the problem when in fact it's us, and oftentimes AN and myself are scorned for bringing this to the community's attention.

I would love to see a time in the future when people who run these organizations are those who actually work as animation artists for a living. Maybe it will happen, maybe it won't as people who like to draw tend to want to draw as oppossed to run an organization. What I encourage the young people looking to break into the biz is that when you get your chance, get involved. Don't let these guys push you around, and don't play by their standards either. You don't have to make it a personal thing even when they attack you personally. Show more maturity than that and hopefully you'll teach some of these old timers how it's done.

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SNAKEBITE
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This kinda attitude happens everywhere. In comics I challenged Marvel recently that us digital guys are worth more then page rates that are 20 years old. I didn't hear anything from the executives, but I had a bunch of my peers turn on me. I told them they were worth more and they basically told me to shut up...and thats just the most recent example.

Creative people in the industry have a lot of growing up to do. Time to look themselves in the mirror with the rest of us and join in on taking responsibility for ones self. We all got bills, we all need to eat, but nothing will change if you're not willing to.

Its ok to believe you're worth more. If that means money, cool, but being worth more brings so much change to everything. Not just the cash flow.
Time to dig a little deeper.

Presidents, Unions, Corporations, these things are no longer design to save or help you. Maybe they never were. Time to save yourself.

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