AnimationNation Forum

AnimationNation


Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | | search | faq | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» AnimationNation   » General Discussion   » Orphans Bill passed...???? (Page 1)

 
This topic is comprised of pages:  1  2 
 
Author Topic: Orphans Bill passed...????
SNAKEBITE
IE # 101
Member # 17

Icon 1 posted      Profile for SNAKEBITE   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
what the?

I should just get out of the business now and save some heart ache.

--------------------
contact@animationnation.com
www.artbysnakebite.com
www.myspace.com/mrbite
www.redskystudio.com
www.myspace.com/redskystudio

IP: Logged
-FP-
IE # 13
Member # 914

Icon 1 posted      Profile for -FP-   Author's Homepage   Email -FP-         Edit/Delete Post 
Hasn't passed full senate yet, as far as I know.
IP: Logged
SNAKEBITE
IE # 101
Member # 17

Icon 1 posted      Profile for SNAKEBITE   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
I got an email from Dianne Feinstein saying

"On May 15, 2008, the Senate Judiciary Committee, of which I am a member, unanimously approved the orphan works bill. Please know that if the Senate considers this legislation any further I will be sure to keep your thoughts and concerns in mind."

unanimous?

I'm scared.

--------------------
contact@animationnation.com
www.artbysnakebite.com
www.myspace.com/mrbite
www.redskystudio.com
www.myspace.com/redskystudio

IP: Logged
Animation Co-op
IE # 295
Member # 3421

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Animation Co-op           Edit/Delete Post 
Ah... this would explain the paramilitary team that rappelled through my studio ceiling and confiscated my sketchbooks.

KG

IP: Logged
SNAKEBITE
IE # 101
Member # 17

Icon 1 posted      Profile for SNAKEBITE   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
this article outlines why Intellectual Properties are so important without ever talking about them.
its awesome!

http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/87046/

--------------------
contact@animationnation.com
www.artbysnakebite.com
www.myspace.com/mrbite
www.redskystudio.com
www.myspace.com/redskystudio

IP: Logged
knowledge
IE # 258
Member # 462

Icon 1 posted      Profile for knowledge   Email knowledge         Edit/Delete Post 
This article contradicts alot of what has been said:

http://maradydd.livejournal.com/374886.html

any thoughts??

IP: Logged
Animation Co-op
IE # 295
Member # 3421

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Animation Co-op           Edit/Delete Post 
Here's one:

This is a tempest is a teapot.

(Plus, that article was linked to and fully discussed in one of the MANY previous threads on this topic.)

This issue is WAY down on my list of genuine threats to freedom and livelihood.

Kevin G.

IP: Logged
Animation Co-op
IE # 295
Member # 3421

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Animation Co-op           Edit/Delete Post 
For better or for worse, we are entering into a global economy in which copyright law is increasingly ineffective and obsolete. So, why stress out over something that is untimately unenforceable?

The successful creators will be those who keep moving and keep creating - those who stay one step ahead of the game at all times - not those who are preoccupied with protecting their old droppings.

"You want what I created last year? You can HAVE it. I'm on to bigger and better things." THAT is the philosophy of the enlightened, empowered creator.

Kevin Geiger

IP: Logged
Animation Co-op
IE # 295
Member # 3421

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Animation Co-op           Edit/Delete Post 
"ultimately" [Smile]
IP: Logged
-FP-
IE # 13
Member # 914

Icon 1 posted      Profile for -FP-   Author's Homepage   Email -FP-         Edit/Delete Post 
It seems Todd Goldman would be in favor of this potential legislation.
IP: Logged
Animation Co-op
IE # 295
Member # 3421

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Animation Co-op           Edit/Delete Post 
Todd Goldman isn't waiting for works to be "orphaned". And neither is the rest of the world. Which is exactly to my point. This issue is a wash.

KG

IP: Logged
BlueHeron
IE # 256
Member # 3264

Icon 1 posted      Profile for BlueHeron   Author's Homepage   Email BlueHeron         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
The successful creators will be those who keep moving and keep creating - those who stay one step ahead of the game at all times - not those who are preoccupied with protecting their old droppings.

"You want what I created last year? You can HAVE it. I'm on to bigger and better things." THAT is the philosophy of the enlightened, empowered creator.

Kevin Geiger

I completely agree with what Kevin is saying here, in my opinion I feel as an artist it is healthier to let go of attachment, because in the end it just causes you to lose time and energy which you could be using to transfer into your new creations.

I personally think a creation you draw, photograph, film, etc. is coming from a source greater than yourself, to say it's yours is only an illusion. I think the awesome thing is the more you let go of rights to your work, the more recognition will come your way:)

I hope I'm not going too Zen here... but I wanted to post some of my favorite quotes...

“As human beings we all want to be happy and free from misery… we have learned that the key to happiness is inner peace. The greatest obstacles to inner peace are disturbing emotions such as anger, attachment, fear and suspicion, while love and compassion and a sense of universal responsibility are the sources of peace and happiness.” - Dalai Lama

"Whatever you fight will strengthen, whatever you resist will persist" Eckhart Tolle

--------------------
The world is but a canvas to the imagination
- Henry David Thoreau

IP: Logged
Kevin
IE # 44
Member # 26

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Kevin   Author's Homepage   Email Kevin         Edit/Delete Post 
While I agree that it's vital for any creator to keep looking forward, this would be a very different world if every writer and artist and filmmaker and creator was comfortable abandoning their rights to their works soon after creating them. The only working creatives would be those doing work-for-hire. Not a pretty world.

The reality is that the increasingly global economy makes it EASIER to enforce copyright. What makes it hard is the digital revolution (for a variety of reasons that I think are mostly self evident). But as the economies of different nations increasingly integrate, copyright enforcement will only increase.

Currently there are only a few large-scale bad actors ripping off creators. Taking the attitude that, because sometimes work is pirated or plagiarized, that we should just shrug our shoulders, spout platitudes, and not look back is silly.

It looks like the government is determined to pass the Orphans Work Act regardless of any feedback from the creative community. It may turn out to be innocuous, as some claim. Or it may not. Even a cursory reading of the bill shows that, as the saying goes, the devil is in the details.

There a ton of leeway in the bill that will allow a variety of "interpretations" in how it will be run and enforced. Time will tell whether it's a minor thing, or yet another massive strain on individual creators. But this bill is not about destroying the integrity of copyright law, however much trouble it may make for enforcing individual copyrights. Taking the attitude that the concept of copyright is obsolete is to accept the complete marginalization of the concept of creating anything.

IP: Logged
SNAKEBITE
IE # 101
Member # 17

Icon 1 posted      Profile for SNAKEBITE   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
"You want what I created last year? You can HAVE it. I'm on to bigger and better things." THAT is the philosophy of the enlightened, empowered creator.


who lives in a cave and has little furry animals as friends.

--------------------
contact@animationnation.com
www.artbysnakebite.com
www.myspace.com/mrbite
www.redskystudio.com
www.myspace.com/redskystudio

IP: Logged
SNAKEBITE
IE # 101
Member # 17

Icon 1 posted      Profile for SNAKEBITE   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
this is a business, not a religion. I don't seek enlightenment from intellectual properties, just profit so I can live and be comfortable. sometimes it takes years to establish, maintain and profit off ones ideas.

You think corporations build their profit margin around enlightenment?

If I want enlightenment I'll find it having a conversation with a rock before I'll find it in letting others profit off my ideas before I do.

--------------------
contact@animationnation.com
www.artbysnakebite.com
www.myspace.com/mrbite
www.redskystudio.com
www.myspace.com/redskystudio

IP: Logged
toonedbob
IE # 45
Member # 422

Icon 1 posted      Profile for toonedbob   Email toonedbob         Edit/Delete Post 
The sentiment of letting go your right as soon as you create it is bad business. Intellectual property is one of the very few assets that the small guys have. As was mentioned by Kevin in another topic - if you don't plan for distribution for your film then you have a hobby -Same thing if you do not protect your work.

If Jeff Smith, for example, went by that sentiment, he wouldn't have finished the epic of Bone before a ton of ripoffs would have their versions after confiscating the abandoned rights after issue #1. As Snake pointed out, it takes time for some properties to be developed.

There is no illusion that what I create is mine. My creations are based on MY training, MY experiences, MY devotion, MY passion, MY tools, MY time - to hell with anyone who wants to grab it for themselves and make profit from it - even a greater illusion.

IP: Logged
SNAKEBITE
IE # 101
Member # 17

Icon 1 posted      Profile for SNAKEBITE   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
I wish rent was an illusion.

--------------------
contact@animationnation.com
www.artbysnakebite.com
www.myspace.com/mrbite
www.redskystudio.com
www.myspace.com/redskystudio

IP: Logged
toonedbob
IE # 45
Member # 422

Icon 1 posted      Profile for toonedbob   Email toonedbob         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I wish rent was an illusion.
And gas prices too...
IP: Logged
SNAKEBITE
IE # 101
Member # 17

Icon 1 posted      Profile for SNAKEBITE   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
and grocery prices...and utilities...medical...dental...optometrist..car insurance...registration...

I know what is an illusion,though... this orphan works bill.

--------------------
contact@animationnation.com
www.artbysnakebite.com
www.myspace.com/mrbite
www.redskystudio.com
www.myspace.com/redskystudio

IP: Logged
Animation Co-op
IE # 295
Member # 3421

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Animation Co-op           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
The reality is that the increasingly global economy makes it EASIER to enforce copyright.
Really? I've been to 5 countries in the last 2 months (Taiwan at the moment), and have seen the exact opposite.

By the way, Kevin, it's only a "platitude" if you're not practicing what you preach. More accurately, what I am advocating is an ATTITUDE.

And it doesn't mean the only viable path for an artist is work-for-hire. Far from it.

Kevin G.

IP: Logged
BlueHeron
IE # 256
Member # 3264

Icon 1 posted      Profile for BlueHeron   Author's Homepage   Email BlueHeron         Edit/Delete Post 
I see your points, however, when I said illusion I was referring to the fact that at some point you have to let go. Yes, do everything you can to protect your work. I'm not saying to draw something and just give it out for free and walk around letting everyone walk on you. Not in the slightest, I think when it gets to the point that when someone steals your work and it becomes an obsession to track them down and sue them, and that search starts drawing energy from you and you don't move forward... that's what I'm talking about.

I know many of you will disagree, but I think ownership is an illusion in that it serves a purpose and function in stating what's mine and yours, but give me one idea or story you can think of that wasn't inspired by or has come from something else. There is nothing new under the sun, just retellings and interpretations from different points of view. I'm not saying to throw out the baby with the bath water, I'm just saying that at some point it doesn't matter, just the act of creating does, at least for me.

--------------------
The world is but a canvas to the imagination
- Henry David Thoreau

IP: Logged
SNAKEBITE
IE # 101
Member # 17

Icon 1 posted      Profile for SNAKEBITE   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
I get being a conduit to the energy of the universe and blessings it gives you.

But even you said, do whatever you can to protect your work. well, first, you would NOT support this bill if you wanted to protect your work.

also, this bill isn't about the rest of the world. I agree you can't control copyrights in all countries...well, unless you have endless resources and you pretty much build a theme park to establish your properties on that market...or if you have resources and business abroad that print and distribute your product.this bill is about what we can control locally.

if you're independent and have very limited resources then your probably have limited ways to control what other countries do with your idea. money wins every time unfortunately. so cool
you have to let go of fighting that battle until you can.

but why in the hell would you adopt that attitude for your local market? the market in which copyright protects you.

with the gray area in this bill it leaves it all open to money winning the argument if there happens to be one...and I imagine there will be plenty of them.

Does copyright reform need to happen? yes. does this bill move in a direction where it protects us more efficiently? oh hell no. so leave it alone until the model is fine tuned.

--------------------
contact@animationnation.com
www.artbysnakebite.com
www.myspace.com/mrbite
www.redskystudio.com
www.myspace.com/redskystudio

IP: Logged
Kevin
IE # 44
Member # 26

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Kevin   Author's Homepage   Email Kevin         Edit/Delete Post 
Kevin, the fact that you've recently visited 5 countries and seen lot's of piracy hardly proves that it is the 'global economy' that's the main problem. But that's a side issue.

My point is that none of us can eat ATTITUDE. Nor will it pay for our housing and clothing. In a world where copyright means nothing, you simply cannot have creatives making a living from creating intellectual property on any kind of scale. Please tell us how to "practice" not enforcing our copyrights and still make a living.

Imagine for a moment a world were copyright law was obsolete and unenforced. New music? None to speak of. Anyone writing music would have to do it as a hobby, since royalties would disappear. Any performer would only be paid for their live performances. Movies, TV shows? Not many. Why would any studio invest in making films or TV shows, when they could be digitally copied and immediately shown for free anywhere, any time, with no money back to the studio? New books? Why write a book when the first copy could be reproduced, again royalty free, ad infinitum? You want new software for your computer? Imagine a world of nothing but freeware?

In the US, copyright was established "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts..." We can argue about the finer points of copyright, but saying it's an obsolete concept is absurd, because that's what it does.

In the same countries you visited, patent and trademark laws are also violated by the black market economy. You might also argue that that means the patent system and trade mark law is also ineffective and obsolete. Imagine a world where inventors had no expectation of profiting from their inventions (except perhaps through charity). Not pretty.

By the way, another thing that disappears when copyright law is ignored is credit and attribution. Without copyright law, I'm free to claim your work as my own. If everyone decides not to "stress" over copyright, then why should they listen to your protests that I'm pirating your work. Why would you? After all, you're moving forward and creating new things . . .

IP: Logged
Charles
Administrator
Member # 7

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Charles           Edit/Delete Post 
From this link with photographers' perspective, posted by Snakebite in the other Orphan Works topic:

http://www.asmp.org/news/spec2008/FAQ_for_OW.php

Complete non-flexibility of the sponsors behind the bill to compromise.

.................

Just about every idea that has been suggested recently in blogs, forums and listservs was proposed during the process of drafting the bills, and most of them were turned down flat.

Here are some of the proposals that Congress rejected:

Carve out all visual works from the scope of the Orphan Works legislation.

Use the Canadian system.

Have users of orphan works pay a small licensing fee that gets collected by the Copyright Office and distributed to claimants.

No “safe harbor” provisions.

Leave the copyright law as is and let users who are worried about liability buy liability insurance, like every other business.

Carve out commercial uses.

Grant orphan works treatment only to individuals for non-revenue-producing uses and to non-profits for non-fiction uses.

Make the Copyright Office digitize its archive of deposit copies and put them online so users could search them using image recognition search technology.

Make the Copyright Office house the registries.

Leave statutory damages and attorneys’ fees in.

There are plenty of folks in America who think that the provisions of the House bill are far too generous to photographers and far too burdensome for users, and who are fighting to trim those provisions back. We will have to work hard to keep what little we now have.

...................

I completely agree with that last line! Which is why I encourage the warriors in our community to stand up and take this seriously. Make your sentiments known loud and clear.

This isn't just about photos, drawings and graphics, it involves everything that a copyright applies to. Screenplays, books, sculptures, music recordings... everything.

Follow this link to contact your state senators. Doesn't matter where you live in the US, just type in your zip code and your senators' email address and text for a message will automatically be setup for you. Edit the text as you like, enter your contact info, and send it off.

Don't give up on this brothers and sisters, it's very important that you let your government officials know how strongly you feel about this, if you feel as strongly as thousands all over the world, that you insist on the protection of the commonlaw copyright.

http://capwiz.com/gag/utr/2/?a=11396676&i=87447122&c=

Spread the word and share this link!

--------------------
 -

IP: Logged
Charles
Administrator
Member # 7

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Charles           Edit/Delete Post 
The replies I received from California's two US Senators. Read their positions and take your action by contacting them please.


From Senator Boxer:


Dear Mr. Zembillas:

Thank you for contacting me regarding S.2913, the Shawn Bentley Orphan Works Act of 2008. I appreciate hearing from you on this issue.

As you may know, "orphan works" are typically defined as copyrighted works whose owner cannot be found. S.2913 seeks to limit damages in
copyright infringement cases for users exhibiting orphan works.

S.2913 was approved by the Senate Judiciary Committee on May 15, 2008. If it comes before the full Senate for a vote, please know that I will
keep your views in mind.

Again, thank you for writing to me. Please feel free to contact me again about any issue of importance to you.

Barbara Boxer
United States Senator

Please visit my website at http://boxer.senate.gov

............................


From Senator Feinstein:


Dear Mr. Zembillas:

Thank you for writing about S. 2913, the "Shawn Bentley Orphan Works Act." I appreciate hearing from you.

America's copyright industry is one of our most important economic engines, and giving artists the incentive to produce their works is vital to our country. As I am sure you know, the creative
process is so important that our Founding Fathers put copyright protection into the U.S. Constitution. That is why I feel so strongly
that we must continue to give copyrighted works the protection they deserve.

I understand your concerns regarding certain provisions in this bill. I believe that all artists should be able to maintain their right to be compensated for their hard work, and I worked with Senator Patrick Leahy (D-VT) to make improvements to the bill that would further protect the rights of visual artists. The bill now also requires the user of an orphan work to search for all persons and entities that can license the intended use of the work before they may use it.

On May 15, 2008, the Senate Judiciary Committee, of which I am a member, unanimously approved the orphan works bill. Please know that if the
Senate considers this legislation any further I will be sure to keep your thoughts and concerns in mind.

Again, thank you for writing. If you should have any further comments or questions, please do not hesitate to contact my Washington, DC staff at (202) 224-3841.

Sincerely yours,

Dianne Feinstein
United States Senator

Further information about my position on issues of concern to California and the Nation are available at my website http://feinstein.senate.gov/public/. You can also receive electronic e-mail updates by subscribing to my e-mail list at http://feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=ENewsletterSignup.Signup.

--------------------
 -

IP: Logged
Animation Co-op
IE # 295
Member # 3421

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Animation Co-op           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Please tell us how to "practice" not enforcing our copyrights and still make a living.
If you'd like to engage me as a consultant, I'd be happy to. I'm already advising clients on how to do this as an aspect of Animation Options LLC.

Look... I'm not advocating a "whatever, free love, commend your work to the wind" approach to content creation. This is a business, and I'm advocating a radical rethinking of the creative business model. One that BENEFITS from a lack of "control" over your work. One that BENEFITS from the "free" replication of your content. One that results in pervasive influence and significant profit.

Those who want to fight a losing battle against copyright infringement can have at it. And good luck. Prohibition against anything (booze, drugs, piracy) has always been a losing game. Anyone want a copy of "Kung Fu Panda" on DVD? I'll run down to Shinlin Night Market this evening and pick one up for you. Now, if the majors can't stem this tide - what hope for us indies?

"Grab and hold" is the business model of the past, so if your business relies on that paradigm, your days are numbered. However, no one can "steal" from you when you don't care if they take it, and "free" is the new business model (WIRED magazine recently had an excellent issue touching upon this).

It's ironic how many "creatives" are anything but when it comes to their business. We owe it to ourselves to get ahead of the curve - and that requires energetic inquiry, keen analysis, creative strategy, and bold execution. In short, it requires response, not reaction.

The Orphan Works issue is moot.

Cheers,
Kevin Geiger
Taipei

IP: Logged
Animation Co-op
IE # 295
Member # 3421

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Animation Co-op           Edit/Delete Post 
Here is the first step in thinking outside the box on this issue:

Instead of thinking to yourself: "How am I going to protect my work from being stolen?"

Ask yourself: "How can I profit from letting anyone who wants to take or replicate my work? How can I profit from letting other people taking my ideas as their own?"

KG

IP: Logged
CavePainter
IE # 297
Member # 2568

Icon 1 posted      Profile for CavePainter   Email CavePainter         Edit/Delete Post 
IF we're reading this properly, any artist that actually has to pay for his food and shelter should be mad as hell. Man, its no wonder why artists and creators are constantly getting thrown under the bus. They don't appear to mind.

You want what I created last year? You can have it.

Let's see how that philosophy applies to ANYTHING other than art:

I'm a carpenter, you can have the house I built last year. I'll lose a couple hundred grand on labor and building materials, but what the hell. I'm on to my next house.

We blended whiskey here at jack daniels and put it in a bunch of barrels a couple years ago to age it. That's right, aged whiskey is now FREE WHISKEY!!!

My company just spent years digging a thousand feet into solid rock a mile off the coast out in the ocean. The derrick alone cost us half a billion dollars. So did the oil tanker. But now that the oil has been sitting in a tank for a while, you can have it for free!!!

I spent 12 years and $250,000 studying boring medical texts and digging in carcasses to learn to be a surgeon. But if you don't pay me for a year, you can have my life-saving surgery for free!!

We're Squibb. We just spent 700 million on 25 years of research and just invented the cure for the common cold. Everybody have it for free!!

Chevrolet just spent 2 years developing the tooling to manufacture the new C5 corvette. Any car left unsold for this model year is absolutely free.

After building the electrical plant for over a year, the electricity coming from that plant is now free for everyone.

I'm Thomas Edison.... and last year I just invented something pretty cool..... but alas, that was last year.

My mortgage is over a year old, so I now own the house!

My money has been in the bank for over a year. Bank's money now- why look back?

My wife wears a wedding band.... I gave it to her a couple years ago.... oh well.

My baby. That's ok. Ill make another one.
[Big Grin]

IP: Logged
Animation Co-op
IE # 295
Member # 3421

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Animation Co-op           Edit/Delete Post 
Apples and oranges, CP.

But you rock on and hold that line in the quicksand! [Wink]

Kevin G.

IP: Logged
Animation Co-op
IE # 295
Member # 3421

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Animation Co-op           Edit/Delete Post 
In short: you're NOT reading it properly.
IP: Logged
Animation Co-op
IE # 295
Member # 3421

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Animation Co-op           Edit/Delete Post 
The reason that "artists and creators are constantly getting thrown under the bus" ISN'T because "they don't appear to mind".

It's because they waste their time and energy fighting the wrong fights.

It's because they don't think creatively about their business model.

While everyone's fretting about "orphan works", the rest of the world is having your lunch.

So... what are you going to DO about it?

KG

IP: Logged
Gagne Michel
IE # 40
Member # 365

Icon 14 posted      Profile for Gagne Michel   Author's Homepage   Email Gagne Michel         Edit/Delete Post 
I'm not going to get into this debate again but I agree with Kevin Geiger on every point. Go Kevin!

--------------------
 -

IP: Logged
Kevin
IE # 44
Member # 26

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Kevin   Author's Homepage   Email Kevin         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
If you'd like to engage me as a consultant, I'd be happy to. I'm already advising clients on how to do this as an aspect of Animation Options LLC.
LOL! So you can tell me how to profit by giving my intellectual property away, but to do that I have to pay YOU for your intellectual property! Brilliant!

It's clear that in this new, copyright-free economy, there's a huge distinction between those who provide services (like consulting and management) and those who provide content (like animated films). Those in the former category have lots of new ways to profit. Those in the latter category ... well, it's not so clear.

Here's the WIRED article. Skip down to the "six broad categories" section, and visualize the animation industry making any of those work.

Here's a quote from the WIRED article:
quote:
Scenario 1: Low-cost digital distribution will make the summer blockbuster free. Theaters will make their money from concessions — and by selling the premium moviegoing experience at a high price.
Great, so the service providers (theaters) might stay in business. And the studio (content provider) that just spent $150 million on that film and is now giving it away for free? How do they pay the bills? Embedded ads? Product placement? Give me a break.

Here's a quote by Cory Doctorow regarding the subject:
quote:
The market for digital goods isn't a market for goods at all: since the potential customers can choose to get all digital goods for free on the darknet, the digital goods market is actually a digital services market: what iTunes Store and the rest sell is the service of getting the digital files in a way that's easier, smarter, or faster.
So if you're involved in distributing creative products, then you'd better pay attention, cause there may be ways to make this work. But I'm waiting to see anyone come up with ways for the CREATORS of the "product" to make a living from going to the time and expense of creating their work, only to have it consumed for free.

Here's a final quote from the WIRED article:
quote:
Between digital reproduction and peer-to-peer distribution, the real cost of distributing music has truly hit bottom. This is a case where the product has become free because of sheer economic gravity, with or without a business model. That force is so powerful that laws, guilt trips, DRM, and every other barrier to piracy the labels can think of have failed. Some artists give away their music online as a way of marketing concerts, merchandise, licensing, and other paid fare. But others have simply accepted that, for them, music is not a moneymaking business. It's something they do for other reasons, from fun to creative expression. Which, of course, has always been true for most musicians anyway.
Since animators and film-makers have no concerts and live performances to profit from, and merchandise is usually a tiny part of the revenue stream, in this model we get to joy of doing what we do "for other reasons, from fun to creative expression."

So who needs copyrights. I need to be free to have fun. I can't wait.

IP: Logged
toonedbob
IE # 45
Member # 422

Icon 1 posted      Profile for toonedbob   Email toonedbob         Edit/Delete Post 
Here's a list of some of the organizations against the legisation:

Illustrators Partnership of America (IPA)
American Institute of Architects (AIA)
American Society of Architectural Illustrators (ASAI)
Artists Rights Society New York (ARSNY)
Association of Medical Illustrators (AMI)
Association of Science Fiction and Fantasy Artists (ASFA)
Graphic Artists Guild
Guild of Natural Science Illustrators (GNSI)
National Cartoonists Society (NCS)
Pittsburgh Society of Illustrators
San Francisco Society of Illustrators (SFSI)
Society of Children's Book Writers & Illustrators (SCBWI)
Society of Illustrators Los Angeles (SILA)
Society of Illustrators New York (SI)
Society of Illustrators San Diego (SISD)
Society of Photographers & Artists Representatives (SPAR)
Akron Society of Artists

Kevin K. Is there an official position from Animation Guild? Should we put it to a vote?

IP: Logged
SNAKEBITE
IE # 101
Member # 17

Icon 1 posted      Profile for SNAKEBITE   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
I have yet to hear anything convincing about how this bill helps anyone but the usual few suspects
that always seem to benefit.

I think creatively about my business models.
the meetings Im currently having tells me I'm five years ahead of the curve. concepts that were hard to convey to companies before are just now starting to be the topic of conversation.

I told bands 10 years ago to look at their music as promotion for their tours and their ancillary where they make their real flow.

AN has been one of the most progressive platforms in the industry about reform and the power of the creative.

IPs are our power. period. take that away and we are nothing but a work force.

if you have solid information on how they are not then share them or stay away with rhetoric
and commercial spots for your business.

as much as this is a promotional platform for people its a platform for reform.

share your knowledge....or better yet Kevin, write a book so I can claim it as my own and profit off it...while you move on to better things of course.

[Wink]

--------------------
contact@animationnation.com
www.artbysnakebite.com
www.myspace.com/mrbite
www.redskystudio.com
www.myspace.com/redskystudio

IP: Logged
CavePainter
IE # 297
Member # 2568

Icon 1 posted      Profile for CavePainter   Email CavePainter         Edit/Delete Post 
Snakebite's point is a good one- Why should we have to pay KG for his consultation services? Why can't his ideas go out into the world for free when mine can? If one of his clients publishes an article online of the text of his consultation meetings and I, instead of hiring Kevin G for his consultation expertise gleaned from years of hard work in the animation biz, choose to save a few grand and just look the article up online, how does he continue to make money in the future? What if all his potential clients just go online and print off the article instead of hiring him? Does he now have to discontinue his consultation service and now do something else?

This seems to extend into the whole Napster argument somewhat.. (without opening a can of worms, here) If your product (music) is available to one and all for free, how do you make a living? The singer Aimee Mann once said that she doesn't sell T-shirts, she sells music- and if someone gives her music away, she doesn't make any money.

Listen, I get the idea that the paradigm is shifting and we are having to somehow change our thinking about intellectual property to some extent. But what is the answer? How can we as artists possibly stay ahead of the curve on this one in the digital world and still make art?

IP: Logged
toonstruck
Member
Member # 1846

Icon 1 posted      Profile for toonstruck   Email toonstruck         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
If you'd like to engage me as a consultant, I'd be happy to. I'm already advising clients on how to do this as an aspect of Animation Options LLC.
Maybe there's the answer right there. Become a consultant and stop creating content.
IP: Logged
gergley
IE # 200
Member # 74

Icon 1 posted      Profile for gergley   Email gergley         Edit/Delete Post 
While FP and the letters Charles posted from the Senators explain where the bill is now and may have answered Snakebite's intitial question, let me clank on the keyboard a bit...


If the Senate bill ( Shawn Bentley Orphan Works Act has cleared the committee then, like FP wrote, the next step is to go to a vote in front of the full Senate.

There's a slightly different version of the same legislation in the House of Representatives. As far as I know, as I type this, it has yet to clear its committee. If and when it does then the House will vote for it.

If both the House and the Senate versions pass after a full vote then what happens is that the House and the Senate will need to put together a compromise version of the bill. Once that compromise bill is worked out then *that* bill will be put to vote.

Sooo... at this point, the Senate version of the bill has cleared a step one, and has at least two more steps to go...


Hopefully that makes sense and doesn't muddy the waters...?

IP: Logged
gergley
IE # 200
Member # 74

Icon 1 posted      Profile for gergley   Email gergley         Edit/Delete Post 
Ain't the Copyright Law fun? (i.e., sorry for being wordy, folks.)

It is really easy to look at it as a one or two lane street. What seems to end up happening is that people (maybe it is just mainly us non-lawyers) look at the lane that goes in their preferred direction.

The thing is despite how clear cut copyright law is it is still complex. At a very basic level, our, the U.S. law, really isn't any more convoluted than when it was passed in the late 1700s. The guts still do the same thing as the intention of the law. However, there's been so much fine-tuning to it in the past 100 years alone that it is even more complex than the original law or any other law which preceded it. Which is why it causes so many headaches, I reckon.

So, instead of being a simple one or two lane street it is a multi-lane highway, with express lanes going either way. The thing is more often than not people look to those express lanes as being the same ol' two lane road and ignore the other lanes.


The outlook that WIRED article seems to promote and what Kevin G. seems to be saying is really looking at the current state of copyright laws from the standpoint of Marketing. Period.

That's all well and fine. That is one way to look at it. But, it However, it does risk putting the cart before the horse. Since there is a lot of that kind of thing going on these days, no blame. That perspective is valid enough as a golden rectangle goes. It just misses the bigger picture.
Marketing is a driver of maximizing copyright, after all--a NYTimes article on animation properties being re-imagined and updated for the kids

But, from the standpoint of creatives--a business standpoint no less--it is really about controlling ones own copyright that has people concerned about this legislation.

There's tons of laws on the books and being proposed to deal with infringement and penalties for infringement. But, they are mainly about enforcement and are only a part of the copyright law and they are mainly being pushed by companies which have the most to lose. Why do they have the most to lose? Demand can be so high for their products.

Smaller scale creators who aren't pushing for millions in sales or pushing millions of units can probably afford to look at the free product= great marketing. But, we should always keep scale in mind when looking at the costs vs. the benefits.

I can see the Give It Away crowd's point. In fact, I wrote in Charles' thread on Alternative Ideas to the Orphan Works that currently anyone can do anything they want with their copyright, including not claim it.

The problem is, like CavePainter pointed out is that the costs vs. benefits, or the Return on Investment, doesn't always pan out by just Giving it Away. In fact, it can devalue the product.

But, that entire point/perspective is off-topic......Soooo, sorry for typing too many words....

IP: Logged
Animation Co-op
IE # 295
Member # 3421

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Animation Co-op           Edit/Delete Post 
For the information of those on this board:

1.) I am BOTH a consultant and a content creator.

2.) I give away PLENTY of information and advice for free - probably more than anyone here over the course of my career, in various contexts. And I continue to do so. I walk my talk.

3.) The point is not about giving EVERYTHING away, but about staying one step ahead of the game.

4.) This is in EVERY WAY applicable to CONTENT CREATION.

5.) I'm under no illusion that I will convince anyone of anything. People are predisposed to construct ladders or dig holes. [Wink]

Good luck, everyone!
KG

IP: Logged



This topic is comprised of pages:  1  2 
 
Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | Animation Nation

Animation Nation © 1999-2012

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0