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» AnimationNation   » General Discussion   » Monkey R People Too

   
Author Topic: Monkey R People Too
SNAKEBITE
IE # 101
Member # 17

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So a friend of mine contacts me and says he watched on the news a story of a man who downloaded his CDs to his mp3 player of choice and got a huge fine
for illegally copying material he owns on his mp3 player of choice...they traced him through the online activity because you computer connects every time you're downloading track names, they trace you.

the details were that in order to put this music on his mp3 player of choice he would have to purchase them again specifically for his mp3 player of choice.

what does this have to do with animation to be in the general discussion area? well everything.

you buy animation and put it in on your video mp3 player of choice and you might get screwed..become a terrorist cuz you're stealing...the patriot act comes into effect and- well, I might be going to far here, but who knows. this is pretty tragic.
everyone here is a potential thief under these standards.

and another revenue generating vehicle for executives who can't seem to share with the people
who come up with the content to begin with.


another prime example of Coorperation and executives

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Animation Co-op
IE # 295
Member # 3421

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Actually, the lesson here is in fact the destructive nature of adversarial thinking.

Music producers are viewing their own dwindling customer base as the enemy, and committing business suicide by attacking their own customers.

"Us vs. Them" is the kiss of death.

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SNAKEBITE
IE # 101
Member # 17

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Thats what I've been tryin to tell executives forever..they don't listen..and artists tend to be followers...soooo

I dunno Kevin, the one connecting factor in these types of problems is the executive. the nature of their animal dictates that they can get away with it..and the nature of the rest of us animals is that we let them.

nothing humble in a Lion watching a vulture eat his kill.

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Animation Co-op
IE # 295
Member # 3421

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The connecting factor is the adversarial mentality.
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Paburrows
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Devils Advocate Question:

So we recieved the various screeners from the different studios via ASIFA. They always come with a note saving that if you copy, lend, distribute, etc these things that they will hunt you down and kill all your family (sarcasism). How advanced are they in finding out? If someone uploads Bee Movie unline what can they do? I someone gives the copy to their friend can they find out?

Im not planning on doing any of this, but I was just wondering. Call it curiosity. I really am greatful to the studios for these and wouldnt want to take advantage of them. I was just wondering.

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Paburrows
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I ment post Bee Movie on-line

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Graphiteman
IE # 218
Member # 2092

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Yes, this is becoming ridiculous.
I believe in purchasing music and DVDs but one should also be able to copy for themselves.
The music industry basically screwed themselves. When I was young we had these 2 song "downloads" called 45s. Somewhere after vinyl up until some enterprising college students exchanged Mp3s, the music industry had us by the short curlies and we had to buy entire Cds to hear one or two favorite songs. They left a void for the consumer to purchase one song and we in turn had to find our own way.
I don't believe in distributing coprighted material but they screwed themself by failing to adapt and having foresight about different media. If we had wax cylinders until the invention of Mp3s they'd be cryin', trying to keep music on wax cylinders.
Unfortunately, I think they will have to accept that "record sales" are more a thing of the past and rely more on broadcast royalties, and concert, merchadise sales. The Genii is out of the bottle and this actions will just make for more enterprising inventions to get around the system.
Add to that, the Canadian Governmetn again is adding a levy to computers and mp3 players that is supposed to go to artists (as the did to Cassette tapes and blank cds).
I have seen nor heard of any evidence of monies making it back to the artist from this tax...but if there is any license for one to copy imo it would be that I have paid upfront money that is upposed to go to the artists. Just being rhetorical but it's a good argumaent imo.

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-FP-
IE # 13
Member # 914

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Way back in the pre-CD era, albums were borrowed, or checked out of the library, and taped. A radio station in my town played a brand-new album in its entirety every night. The DJ would usually say "Pop in your tape and make sure to get the left-right balance adjusted". Before I could learn to drive, I expected to get tons of music for the cost of blank tape.

CD burners and MP3s made it all easier, but it's not a new thing. Then and now, though, I still paid money for my favorites - the exact same amount of money I would have spent if it was impossbile to copy music. It's the same with DVDs - while it may be impossible to resist downloading a leaked screener of THE INCREDIBLES, it's also impossible to resist dropping $13 at WalMart for the legitimate DVD when it comes out, to get the extras and full commentary. Net loss to movie producers: $0. While it may be tempting, for curiosity's sake, to download an R5 of the repulsive STARDUST, I never in a million years would have paid to see it in a theater anyway. Besides, it will be on HBO in a few months, which I keep to watch CURB YOUR ENTHUSIASM, ENTOURAGE, THE WIRE, and etc. Net loss to STARDUST producers? $0. In fact, they should pay me money. Bleh.

If the industry is genuinely in "trouble", it's because people can't or won't continue to buy the staggering assortment of available music and video. There must be about 100 times more audiovisual fun, both good and bad, than there was twenty years ago. It's hard to keep up with it. Meanwhile, there's less discretionary income to spend on new entertainment and the USA's credit cards are bottoming out.

It's almost as if the RIAA and MPAA aren't willing to accept normal market fluctuations based on the general economy.

 -

The above entirely ignores buying "used" CDs and DVDs from AMAZON for a fraction of their original prices, or buying the same from pawnshops. The transaction is totally legal, yet no money goes to the producers or artists. Wha? The whole distribution system is like very leaky hydraulics.

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Paburrows
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I agree with FP

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eboles
IE # 266
Member # 917

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Something about the ease with which you can do all this filesharing has never sat right with me. In many ways it's great, but I also think it devalues media. Especially in the case of animated films, which, outside of whether they're any good or not, are always substantial investments when you get down to it.

A friend of my younger brother got a threatening letter in the mail about how he had been file-sharing and downloading music. Either he pay them a penalty of few grand or they'd take him to court. His parents paid up.

This would be a great racket for the record companies. They could probably send such letters to the parents of teenagers everywhere and really clean up.

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SNAKEBITE
IE # 101
Member # 17

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I think they are already hip to it..they're just easing into it. getting people use to the idea.

so now we're all turning on each other..well, not everyone, just the executives again.tryin so hard to
hold onto the illusion they created.

monkey r people too

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devourax
IE # 275
Member # 2197

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Most music I buy anymore is in the "used" section on Amazon. (new too) I have never had a problem with any disc and you can't beat the price. I know the artist will not see a royalty as well as the record company...but I really don't care. I have bought my favorite artists on LP, cassette, cd, as well as dvd, and cd singles. So they have definately made their money from me. So I have no reservations when I can buy it "used".

Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. I just received a cd for Christmas that will only play in "select" cd players. I can't rip it to my computer because of the copy paranoia technology embedded on the disc...so I can't enjoy the cd at my work or on my ipod. It's a total joke.
I will definately rethink buying a disk under that label in the future.

dev-

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Devourax
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Graphiteman
IE # 218
Member # 2092

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Well articulated, FP. 'Xactly! Wish I'd said that.
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Graphiteman
IE # 218
Member # 2092

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I don't agree with file sharing...especially for newer artists and the viral quality (in distribution and literally the effects on one's computer).
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Graphiteman
IE # 218
Member # 2092

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quote:
Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. I just received a cd for Christmas that will only play in "select" cd players. I can't rip it to my computer because of the copy paranoia technology embedded on the disc...so I can't enjoy the cd at my work or on my ipod. It's a total joke.
I will definately rethink buying a disk under that label in the future.

Sounds like the early days of the phonograph; some 78s had different size holes in the middle and could only be played on certain phonograph players. That idea didn't stick around, did it?
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tstevens
IE # 234
Member # 801

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The recording industry is rapidly trying to save itself. What they are starting to push is a system that is purely subscription based. You would pay a monthly subscription to a service like Rhapsody or I-tunes and you would launch music lists and song selections directly from them. In exchange for your monthly rate you get unlimited access to every selection they have. If people signed on to this it would give music producers a constant stream of income. This system would also allow the "music providers" to accurately track every single song that gets played by every person who subscribes. In a system like this your service could reccomend music to you based on your preferences.

However, there are many problems with this model.

-Most people listen to a finite amount of music. If you only listen to a catalogue of a few hundred tunes you are paying to listen to those songs over and over.

-To do this you would need to have a special player with a constant wireless hookup. Because you would need to be able to have a two way connection it would require a good amount of bandwidth and you would be limited to areas with good reception.

-If a recording artist you like goes to a different supplier then the one you have, then you have to get another subscription to listen to said artist.

What it comes down to is that the industry is saying that you don't own the music on a CD, tape, or file (which is true). What you own is the format, not the copywritten material on that format. Recording from format to format is then illegal because you are duplicating copywritten material.

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SNAKEBITE
IE # 101
Member # 17

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What about the people building the technology that allows one to back up your library to take with you in a mp3 player of choice? Ipod built a whole campaign and profited big time around this mentality.

so what about myspace, where they allow one to put a song of choice on their page to entertain people while they browse your space? do we have to pay for that now?

I own my cds and how I listen to them should be my choice. I should even be able to sell my catalog in its original format, like how I would my old car if Im ready for a new one. Toyota doesn't arrest me if I make some money off my used car
nor do they tell me where I can drive my car or how I drive.

why should any record company have control over how you listen to the music you purchased or where you listen to it? if Im not making a profit off my music by reproduction how can they tell me how to control my personal music appreciation.

this a fine fascist line.

artists have been getting the short end of the profit stick for a long time and I can't think of one time where corporations made moves to change that. sounds like the industry didn't think of the future when they were positioning themselves. not our fault. we paid our dues. we did what they said we were supposed to.

Radio Head established a great model for artists.
maintain your rights and sell online as you see fit. then, if you want, distribute through label of choice.

between this and the writers strike theres all kinds of reason for industry reform.

lets take back what belongs to us...then hire people to count our beans.

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SNAKEBITE
IE # 101
Member # 17

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maybe we should think about whats considered format.
is my car stereo a different format that my home stereo? and if its not now, will it be in the future if everything is digital?

purchase music to play on one format could mean you have to buy the song multiple times to be able to listen to it at your leisure. home, car, headphones, computer etc etc.

do the artists have to go through lame strikes and re negotiate their positions if this becomes standard? will corporations share the wealth like they didn't before?

I could argue the labels don't own the copyright material on the cds, the artists do. and any contract that states otherwise should be considered criminal.

I wonder what the artists think. I know the record business a little bit and unless you are on the radio as a big trendy hit, if you're owned by a label the only real way to make money is touring, not record sales. so I wonder if new artists buy into this bullpoopoo that this technology is affecting their profits.

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tstevens
IE # 234
Member # 801

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I'm not really sure if there is any concensus at all. Rick Rubin is a big proponent of the subscription model. However, for downloading you have everything from RadioHead just about giving the music away to Metallica tracking down Napster. Part of the problem is that if you go with a subscription basis you have to figure out a way for unknown artists to get thier music out.

Now if you are looking at this from a purely "music/audio" POV then you have to stand back and look at from the POV of a photographer, film maker, or illustrator. If I go to your website and download images and then use them on my own website is that OK with you or am I violating copyright laws? Should I have to ask for your permision to use the image? Should I be held liable under penalty of law if I downlaod one of your images and use it without your permission? Is there a difference between audio files and image files? Is there a difference between a large corporation protecting thier material as compared to an individual.

I think in the end this may actually give artists more leverage to control thier images: not less.

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SNAKEBITE
IE # 101
Member # 17

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the last thing we need is more red tape to get our images out there and let people enjoy them.

the real issue, is our control. you're right. but not from our audience but from the people who have told us that we don't have control.

I want the audience to enjoy what I have in the most accessible way possible. I hate buying crap online but it should be an option. I like to go into a store with other people, try the product out, feel it,listen to it, whatever and then have a place I can go to to return it if theres a problem. every experience I've had with purchasing on the internet
seems like a waste of time. more of a hassle than anything.

ofcourse Im one dude and lots of people love the internet to buy stuff.

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Graphiteman
IE # 218
Member # 2092

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Tstevens,
Of course I would be upset if someone used my work for commercial purposes(including an individual misrepresenting that they did the work simply by omitting to say who did it.).
But what we are talking about is purchasing the music and copying to another medium like cd or mp3 player for that individual's personal entertainment.
I would liken it to if I had a DVD of my work. I would not be bent if an individual purchased it and converted it to their iPod. Yes I would be upset if it were virally shared. Perhaps that is what the record companies should prove but it is much more difficult?

BTW....I have a confession....I do copy artwork from the Internet too for inspiration. There's a folder on my desktop to which I drag cool stuff old and new and it plays stuff as a screensaver.
I would never in a million years post the stuff anywhere or claim it was mine or swipe it artistically. Did I steal it? It was freely displayed on various sites...or am I like a collector of old cutting my favorite things from magazines for a morgue or scrapbook?

Slightly O.T Radiohead:
I don't know about the band's business model (I don't consider myself a businessman period) but I do know my kid (a huge fan) purchased their latest from their site. It wasn't enough to have the special cd that he went out and bought the commercial version to play, saving the special one. Appreciating that most artists are not that huge successes, there's
something said about being friendly.

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