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» AnimationNation   » General Discussion   » Animator Boyd killed in Vancouver (Page 2)

 
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Author Topic: Animator Boyd killed in Vancouver
Greg B
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"After Boyd's chain injured two officers, police say additional officers retreated for half a block before shooting him in self-defence."

Trondheimfan how the hell was I wrong?

What do the words 'retreat' and 'for half a block' mean to you? Oh, I forgot you know everything.

Charles, you know my viewpoint on the issue and my associations with law enforcement and I'm so sorry if it bruises the ego of Monkeydad but I come from a lonnnnnnnng line of law enforcement in the U.S. AND Canada going back 100 years BEFORE there was a U.S. and then some.

I don't care which way you shake it. From the news reports both tv and print something says another alternative, a non-lethal alternative could have been employed. I'm quite sure as big a man as he was it wouldn't have been difficult for a trained officer to have wounded the man and then apprehended him.

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Fooksie
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I didn't want to make a comment on this thread, because of the usaual cast of characters, but I have to say something.
It is so sad that this talented guy's life ended the way it did.
That is the main point. Number one. I feel sorry for his family and loved ones. He is gone, and they never get to see him laugh again.
Period.
That said, a policeman will jump between you and a bullet on any given day, because that is his job.
But to call them "gun-happy pussies", and to second guess them about how they handled their job after two of them were injured..that's just ignorant.
This doesn't seem to be a "Rodney King".
But the main point should be that this guy is dead, and his family and friends will miss him.

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Buddy Love

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Paburrows
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Yeah Im tired of people always judging these people who put their life on the line. I mean the guy was having mental problems and that makes him unpredictable. He had already taken out two cops when they used non-lethal force. So the last cop was backed up against the wall in more ways then one. That said Its tragic what happened to Boyd.

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monkeydad
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Trondheim fan, thanks. I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw things the way I did.

Charles, I'm far from a troll on this board. I post regularly, and I've tried to change my login to my name frequently in the years I've had an account, buy apparently that's not an option. Neither is having multiple accounts. So how, exactly, am I supposed to not be "anonymous" if I can't change my account or start a new one?

If you want to suspend my account, that's your right. But please - let's be accurate as to how this started. If you go back and look, you'll see that this exchange heated up when I was invited to go "bite something". Prior to that, it was all pretty civil. And it was one of your "subscribed" members making that particular invitation - and spent as much time coming back at me as I did going at him. But I guess the twin sins of being anonymous and not contributing to the "independent economy" meant that I was at fault regardless.

If you don't like anonymity, then disallow it - lots of sites require that you use your real name. Let me edit my profile, and I'll be happy to no longer be anonymous. I've had an account here for many years, and like to think I've contributed positively to the conversation - this latest example notwithstanding.

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Graphiteman
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From my brief 6 months aquaintance with Paul 4 years ago there are things I can percieve in hindsight and only now put two and two together. That said, it's still only my conjecture so I don't know how anyone further removed can comment.

But this is true: Paul Boyd was the one who took the time with me to explain how Flash worked for broadcast; taking it from the ink and paint program as I used it to an effecient tool.

We were not pals but merely acquaintances; co-workers with a waving relationship. Before his passing I may've dismissed him as Oh!That guy. But now I see how our lives truly effect one another. No one is an island and there are ripple effects, good and bad, caused by the smallest things we do.

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Greg B
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Monkeydad quote: "Greg, you really need to read closer. It doesn't say the police were half a block away, it says they retreated for half a block. Boyd could have continued to advance over that same distance. I don't know that he did, but I'm also not jumping to some of the same conclusions you are.

There's enough tragedy in this story without manufacturing more through sloppy interpretation. "

So Monkeydad THAT is where it started with your two cent comment. You threw out an evaluation and got one back. So let's not go through 'sloppy interpretations' eh?

Let Charles run this train.

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monkeydad
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Thanks Greg. Like I said, it was pretty civil at that point. Nothing particularly inflammatory in that quote, and certainly nothing that required "Monkeydad go bite something" as a response.

I've spent enough time on this. Have the last word if you like.

-Paul Naas

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Trondheimfan
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quote:
Monkeydad quote: "Greg, you really need to read closer. It doesn't say the police were half a block away, it says they retreated for half a block. Boyd could have continued to advance over that same distance. I don't know that he did, but I'm also not jumping to some of the same conclusions you are.

There's enough tragedy in this story without manufacturing more through sloppy interpretation. "

So Monkeydad THAT is where it started with your two cent comment. You threw out an evaluation and got one back.

First thing said back to monkeydad:

quote:
Monkeydad go bite something.
Nice evaluation, I can see your point.

Monkeydad, I know it's hard, but just let it go. It doesn't matter how right you are, you'll never win a discussion with this guy.
Besides, he probably knows people who can get around your anynonymity, and then he knows some other people who'll be waiting for you by your house with guns and padlocks on chains which they got from some other guys he knows.

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Chris Roman
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Yep, Greg, you lose on the 'who's being civil and who's being petty'. I also was thinking I should mind my own business, and perhaps I should, but it's very clear that you crossed the line first. I've been here a long time. You don't know me, I don't know you except for here on this board. If I were you, and I'm not, I'd apologize to retain a level or integrity here on AnimationNation.

But I have met Charles. I'm surprised how quick you jumped on to chastise monkeydad when it's clear Greg was first to stoop to a personal attack. I understand wanting to keep things around here civil, and I know how you dislike having to police the board, but it seems in this case your loyalties to Greg clouded your objectivity here.

Just my unasked for two cents.

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ColorInAble
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First,
I would like to express my condolences to Paul Boyds family. I never knew him, but from what I see here on this thread, he was greatly cared about, and will be extremely missed in the animation community...

Second,
I know the people here who are law enforcement boosters know what Parole is. It's what you put someone on when they have served their time for their crime. It's a system that was created to check up on these people becasue as humans one thing we have found is that people who commit crimes once, are likely to do it again.
And as humans we have found this to be true with organizations that commit criminal acts as well. And many companies have had some sort of judicial oversight after being caught committing a crime, becasue one thing we have found out about people, and that is that those who conspire to commit a crime, are likely to do it agian, whether being an individual, or in a group, in this example a business.
And we have found out about the human race that this propencity to act criminally as a cooperative group extends beyond the private sector. There are many government agencies, local, state and federal, that have been caught breaking the law, and been placed in one sort of oversight program or another by the law enforcement powers that be, becasue one thing we have learned about people, and that is that those who commit crime, be they individuals or groups, if they do it once, they are more likely to do it again. In cases like these, instead of the term "Parole" the equivelent is called "Federal Receivership" or "Federal Oversight".
We have these things in place because as a society we realize that those who offend are quite often repeat offenders.
So, for those who are police boosters here, why can't you understand that police are human too, and do all the same things that other hmans do, including the ones that offend are likely to be repeat offenders.
I live in Los Angeles County. I see the city of that name is under a Federal Decree to monitor the police department because of exactly the things that those who aren't such boosters have seen the police do here in L.A. (Framing suspects, fabricating evidence, theft, etc...)
And Los Angeles isn't the first place, or the first time ever that the law enforcement powers that be have gone overboard in their duties.
The reality about that in the United States of America goes back to the original days of writing the constitution. I say this because the founding fathers wrote many provisions into the constitution to curb zealous law enforcement. The reason they wrote these things in is because they had experienced it themselves. Yes, the founding fathers were hounded by the cops, and were sick of it, and there are many provisions in the constituiton from prohibitions on search and seazure to bans against having private citizens forced to house law enforcement officials, all coming directly from their experience.
For those of you who are law enforcement boosters, please just be aware, that whole profession is "On Parole" with many in this country, and justly so, because that profession has one of the longest rap sheets of criminal abuse of any profession in the country.
I don't disagree, it's a very tough job, extremely dangerous and quite trying. Many of the people who take it on are brave souls who deserve nothing but respect.
But when people in the profession of local law enforcement handcuff someone to a light pole in front of Best Buy and have them wait like that for the treasury department official comes, to say, "He's paying his bill with $2 Bills. Uncuff him, Best Buy should accept $2 bills, they are as good for all debts public and private as a $1 bill or a $100 bill".
In otherwords, when the police use tatics like that (handcuffing the customer to a flagpole in front of the store as detention for hours until the treasury arived) to deal with this law abiding citizens just becasue they as police are not trained enough to recognize a $2 bill (shows the the police are as bright as the average Best Buy employee, who called the cops becasue they didn't recognize a $2 bill either), of course they erode trust and support from their employers (Joe Friday always said he worked for the people).
And you know, when I, as a person of color, go into Dennys, even if no one at that resturant was employed by the company 10 years ago, when they finally started to deal with their criminal past, those people who work there now are still on parole, not as individuals, but as a company, as I sit down to eat. And I watch them like I was a parole officer. (I only started back to Dennys this year, my girlfriend has convinced me to actually give them a second chance).
I think you get my drift, please don't make me go onto YouTube and find the police beatings to link here to bring the point home.
One thing that this event has made very clear, police need training in how to handle the ill. Both mentally, as in this case, and physically, as in the case of the TB flier a couple of months ago. They are woefully undertrained in this area pretty much nationwide.

Third, Greg B.
Remember the thread where I said I don't want to run a board?
See what Charles is having to do in this thread?
See why now?
I have a lot of respect for his wisdom and guidenace in his and his crews moderation. And I have no desire to wear that hat myself. And I defer to his wisdom in running this board.

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Kion
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This situation stinks. Police get alot of training most them are good, but they are people.

2 months ago the police shot 22 times into my friends brothers car, at a traffic stop, no weapon was found. My friends brother is still alive, thankfully


Police brutality is real....just have to keep watching story to see what happens.

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OFFBEAT
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No, I have never been mentally ill.. unless wanting to be an artist as a profession counts..

To what extent should being Mentally Ill play a factor?? Get's so 'mental' he hits a few people?

.. It shouldn't be. I mean.. you could technically say that many crimes are committed by the mentally ill.. being desperate enough to rob a bank.. is not being of sound mind.

Last night, I watched a teenager slapping an atm machine.. then walks over.. cutting in line to a couple of the Box Office machines outside of the AMC theater and starts pushing buttons randomly while people were waiting to use it.

And Admitingly.. I was thinking.. where the hell is a gun happy Canadian police officer when you need one? Oh how i'd love a bat to beat the stupidity out of him... and pound some manners into him.

And I know I'll have that same thought in the future whenever I see a gang member walking around just looking for an excuse to throw down. Where is the gun-happy way to end this person's trespass into my sense of security??

Don't get me wrong.. as far as this animator.. and the mentally ill are concerned.. I wish there was a gun that would knock people out for 1/2 hour. (actually I don't.. cause I think people would commit more crimes) but lethal guns are the Canadian's choice for law enforcement. It's common knowledge.. law enforcement has carried lethal means for centuries.. and if he's so crazy.. to the point where he can't control his actions in public.. he shoulda chained himself to his bed.. as if he was a werewolf.

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Greg B
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Chris Roman, I appreciate your input but no. I don't agree with you.

Trondheimfan, you just made my case. Thanks.

Color in Able, wonderful post. Believe me, if you think this board is a challenge imagine for almost 8 years working for America Online moderating not one board but dozens of boards that are 'live'. Having to interact with thousands of people per hour and everything from criminal threats to things I can't mention here going on. Our magazine was one of the most popular at the time on AOL it was calle Parascope. However, some of us on staff also moderated numerous sites across the demographics on AOL.

Fights happen. I remember one night being asked to check on the religious chat rooms because there was a fight breaking out. I went to the Jewish chat room and there was a wee disagreement. We handled that. I went to the Christian chat room and it was so peaceful you could hear daisies growing. I went to the Hindu chat room and it was like a breath of fresh air.

Then I went to the Muslim chat room. It was a nightmare. Everyone and their brother was threatening one another with death! After logging the chat for 2 minutes I then interjected that I thought Islam was a religion of peace and that the other chat rooms were making the Muslim chat room look embarrassing. Suddenly it stopped except for a few who kicked it up again. I continued to log, added the necessary disciplinary actions and kicked it upstairs to the authorities. We never saw the Muslim chat room so chaotic before. We didn't know why.

Next day was Sept. 11.

So moderating a board can be a challenge. The difference with this board is that one has 'time' to write long stories if one chooses. Our magazine had 75 staff members. We ranged from scientists to housewives to cops to crack military vets and advisers. We even had 60 year old grandmothers who could kick butt and take names at a moment's notice.

One of my favorites was a chap, a huge gent who was actually one of the most dangerous men alive. Rewrote the military's hand to hand combat manuals, yet he was the most nicest, gentle men we'd ever met. He had this strange ability to keep people and animals calm. His house had cougars, deer, wildcats, rabbits etc. and as long as he put his foot down, not one attacked the other. Our supervisor who used to direct music videos told me one day about him. She said when she visited his home she couldn't believe her eyes.

Everyday we'd get threats. There was a nut a minute on AOL back then. We had the procedures worked out with law enforcement to handle problems and actually trained many in law enforcement about the internet. All pals to this day. Many of us write and work on many articles, magazines and websites etc.

It's the kind of job you have to love helping people communicate. I think Charles and the staff do a wonderful job here at AN considering some of the shenanigans that have occured.

Our typical day would be 24/7 open chat rooms and thousands of people an hour. You had to know who they were, their member profiles etc. Plus dozens of computer commands to handle them. Not only that, but we integrated with several radio shows live like Jeff Rense and Art Bell. Back then Art was a member of our staff so at any given major news story things would just explode.

Example of the hairiest day? I was doing back up security and a guy IMd me. He was in San Diego and was worried about his friends who weren't calling and hadn't come out of the house in days. He said he'd been in some religious group and had gotten out or away. He asked if I had heard from several of these people and yes they had been members of AOL and I knew the names immediately. Luckily I kept a database of names as did the others. Then one of my seniors got the news just as it was breaking on tv. It was the Heaven's Gate Cult.

So as moderators and cybercops we had to keep our cool when other's couldn't. My supervisor had a saying, " Always smile from the wrists down. "

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toonstruck
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This is indeed a sad event. My thoughts go out to family and friends.


I'd like to say though. If I were a police officer (and I am not saying this is what happened, just a hypothetical situation) and someone was swinging a chain with a lock on it at me. And he already knocked down two cops, and was advancing on me, and even though I was retreating and the guy continued at me... I'd probably shoot too.

I'd hopefully aim for the knee cap. But in the heat of bodies moving all over the place and dodging swinging chains, I'm not sure I could hit a knee cap. But, I sure could hit someone in the chest. So, maybe I'd do that. Who knows.


Again, I'm not saying that is what happened, cause no one here really knows. Additionally, considering all of the conflicting accounts, I'm not even sure the people that were there even know what happened.


Whatever the case. If I were put in that situation described above. I'd probably pull the trigger too.

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knowledge
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Sad story.

Lots of "woulda, coulda, shoulda's" about how it could have been handled better. As in the martial arts, the hardest thing to train is the human mind and its decision making ability in the heat of the moment. I'm sure the cop who killed him will replay his decision over and over again for the rest of his life.

R.I.P. Paul

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Sketchpad
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Knowledge said it well.

My condolences to the family and friends of Paul Boyd.

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Paburrows
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I admit that there are a few bad apples in the police force as there are in any line of work and they do need to be removed. I worry though that if we start trying hands to much then it makes it hard for the majority of the good cops to protect us. Its easy for us to sit back an dclaim that the officer made a wrong move, but if in the same situation would we do differently?

I look at it this way, If we don't take drugs then the police don't have reason to bust us. Same thing goes for speeding, stealing or anything else that brings the attention of the police on us. The news always focuses on the polices actions and rarely ever on what the citizen did to get their attention. Sure the police who beat Rodney King should had been punished, but what did he do to be pulled over?

A few months ago there were some border officers who tryed to aprehend an armed drug dealer. When he showed his gun they ended up shooting his rear end. No mention of the fact that he was a drug dealer or trying to break the law by sneaking over the border, but the officers went to jail for shooting the illigal drug dealer. And now the dealer is in the US selling drugs to our kids.

A year or two ago so moron held us a bank and in the police stand off use his own daughter as a shield. The police ended us shooting him and they get in trouble

I mean part of the reason why 9/11 happened was because the FBI/CIAs hand were tried and couldn't communicate to each other when they had the clues that something was going down.

I greve for Paul Boyd's tragic death and needless death and realize that he was a special case with his disorder and that needs to be taken into account. I also think though that we need to be less judgemental of those who protect us. Let those in charge make the judgements, but also don't limit their abilities to serve and protect.

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ColorInAble
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Paburrows Said:
quote:
I look at it this way, If we don't take drugs then the police don't have reason to bust us. Same thing goes for speeding, stealing or anything else that brings the attention of the police on us.
Paburrows
Does driving while "Black" count?
Maybe not to you, but it does to me, and to many Police officers out there.

And I'm not the only one...
From You Tube, driving while Black a CBS short
Driving while Black part 1 of 3
Part 2 This may be a good start for many here...
Part 3 for Driving while Black
And a cartoon from the animators at BET abotu Driving while Black

And when this many people have this experience, "The Police have violated their Parole!!!"

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OFFBEAT
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It's a learned stereotype.

Unless you are suggesting people are being taught in police and cab training to pull over or not pick up black people.

I'm sure if I was a cab driver, and black people jumped out of my cab without paying more than a few times.. i'd be reluctant to pick them up as well. I think everyone with basic survival skills would.

Same thing with being a cop.. if my experiences are that a majority of stolen vehicles are caused by a certain age/gender/race.. i'd be suspicious of that racial stereotyping going.

The thing about black culture I notice, is that dressing like a thug/gangster has been considered "Hip" for at least the last 20 years.

So, of course cops are going to profile people who look and dress like people they are accustomed to arresting.

If I was a cop.. I would have ZERO suspicion of these black men..
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Now, same street.. same race.. different clothes= different suspicion..
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It's unfair to lump all black men together without mentioning their 'style'

Goes the same for every race:

No suspicion..
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VERY Suspicious..
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No suspicion..
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Suspicious!
..actually.. i've never seen a dangerous looking asian. They are so cute!!!
(kidding.. ran out of images I could post.. was going to post a pic of Ichi the killer)

..So in short.. the problem of racial profiling and getting a cab, can be solved by shopping at Old Navy.

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OFFBEAT
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[Big Grin]

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OFFBEAT
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Take THAT image protection!!
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OFFBEAT
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But ironically.. the real mother f-r's who commit the worst atrocities and spread misery on planet earth... wear these.. and never even touch weapons!
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ColorInAble
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Last time I flew, about 9 months after 9-11, when Kim Jon Ill was starting more sabre rattling, it seemed like the only way to get the TSA to randomly search you was either to look truly insane, or like this guy...
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It's sad that some can't separate thier stereotypes from the reality. According to Offbeats reasoning, any woman with a short skirt is fair game, because that what the hookers wear...

You are right though, the biggest criminals in America tend to look the most like this...

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ColorInAble
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Don't I wish all the Black folks in America could combined, steal as much as one Ken Lay...

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Chris Roman
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quote:
According to Offbeats reasoning, any woman with a short skirt is fair game, because that what the hookers wear...
ColorinAble, did you ever hear Dave Chapelle's bit about women wearing hooker uniforms? It went something like...

"Ladies, wear what you want, but what if I was wearing a police uniform, and you ran up to me screaming, 'Help me officer' and I said, 'How DARE you! Just because I'm dressed like this doesn't make me a cop!'...so wear what you like, but if you're wearing the uniform, expect us to treat you like you're a hooker."

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OFFBEAT
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I know I discriminate over the way someone dresses A LOT more than their race.

Remember.. that Far Side Cartoon... It's captioned something like "Nature's way of saying 'keep away' and there were drawings of thorns on a rose, and rattlesnake shaking it's tail.. and a guy wearing a trench coat, with a kid's horse innertube over it, a flowered hat.. he had a scar, and was holding a rocket launcher.

But.. If I see someone like this walking around town..
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..i'm crossing the street.

And if I were a cop seeing a crazed person swinging a padlock and chain at me.. I'd shoot him too... to be fair.. i'd aim for the padlock first.. but i'm a lousy shot.

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OFFBEAT
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Show me one picture where Kim Jon Ill is dressed like Hiro Tokomoru!!

Every photo i've seen of Kim Jon Ill.. he's dressed like one person..
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OFFBEAT
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Actually.. thinking more on it.. if I were the cop.. I probably would have tried to empty a whole can of bear mace on him first.. use my billy club to take the blow of the chain.. hoping it would wrap around it... enough to get me close enough to administer the "beat down".. then if that didn't work.. i'd shoot him last.

But.. I don't fault the cops.
He should have know.. being retarded or not.. to Respect his author-i-tay
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ColorInAble
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Offbeat,
I feel that last post with Cartman is in bad taste.

Yeah Chris,
That stand up is part of what inspired me to choose that as an example.

When I was writing that reply I wanted to say I never do it, but I can't because of all the homeless in Downtown L.A., when I see them I avoid them because I know because of the look.

But a lot don't get how real and pervasive racial profiling is, by the police and in general. And I can see some will have no sensitivity because it's not part of their experience.

I'm just glad to say I can say to a woman "I believe you, Labor pain is intense!" and I have to trust them when they tell me so, because as a man I can't bear children, and I will never experience labor pain. But for some, the only way they can believe anything is through empathy, and they will never experience it. This is why many will vote by race, and some by gender, because they realize that many have no ability to understand anything that isn't a direct part of their personal experience...

It's another shortcoming of humans...

And finally, it was sort of obvious, when I was flying about 5 years ago, that Asians were being profiled because the U.S. was uncomfortable about North Korea, and to TSA, most Asians look alike...

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ColorInAble
IE # 68
Member # 1444

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What I think the other real part of this thread should be, and we haven't really touched on it is, Police are woefully under trained.

It's not like it was a hundred years ago. "dB". Do you know what that means? Well you better if you're a cop in many cities, because you are required to enforce laws where that is the standard unit of measure.

And you can't assume as a cop. There's a show in NYC on cable, where the host goes out in the street and gets women to take their top off and bare their breasts. This guy has almost been arrested so many times he carries the the portion of the NYC legal code around with him. You know why? Because in NYC it is NOT illegal for a woman to bare her breasts, and the law says so. Too bad the cops there don't know that, and assume the opposite.

I'm a strong believer that a BA or BS degree should be a minimum requirement for anyone who is a sworn law enforcement official, and have lived in cities where that is the case for all new recruits. But America isn't really interested in having first responders who are actually smart enough to deal with a first response situation.

I don't think I'd ever buy a house in L.A. I'd be so angry over how much of my local tax and property tax went to good citizens who were abused by the police and sued. Since I came out here 6 years ago,I know L.A. has paid out over $150,000,000 (One Hundred Fifty Million Dollars) for just such police "indescressions"...

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Dan P.
IE # 248
Member # 893

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First, my condolences go to Boyd's family and friends.

Second, to Offbeat, please man, you're going way overboard in this thread. Calling this poor guy "retarded" and saying he "should've known better" shows a true lack of understanding about mental illness. Making a mockery of a fellow animator's death seems, even for you and your dark sense of humor(I usually get it), to be really insensitive.

I have a relative who suffers from bi-polar disorder and can very well understand how someone suffering from such a condition could end up swinging a chain at the police. I can't say wether the officers were in the wrong or not, but Boyd was obviously not on his meds and he couldn't control his actions. At some point during that day his mind went blank and he was no longer accountable for what he did. That's the nature of this illness. He clearly needed to be supervised more closely but he was a single man living alone so there was no one to reach out to him at that point.

From the eye-witness accounts, it seems like they shot him more than once and I find that hard to accept. He was apparently already down when the last shot was fired for pete's sake! Good luck telling me there was a need for that!

I just hope the investigation gets to the truth. If the cops didn't do their jobs right they should be responsible for their actions. Killing someone is still killing someone even if you're wearing a badge.

R.I.P. Paul Boyd

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eBee
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Has anyone here ever had to deal with police in a situation where you truly felt you were being victimized. The police dpts in Canada routinely get away with questionable shootings...most of those often resulting in death...and usually the dead person is someone considered of little importance. If this was the PM's son you can bet the tale would have a different flavor.

The system here protects police to the end. If the police here stop you because you...say... have a 'fro , sport locks, walk funny, and you take issue with it, see what happens. They will gladly create an infraction for you then let you know that your rights are a joke. All any cop has to do to KILL you is say they feared for their lives...it's in our criminal code. There is very little that can be done to bring a cop to court in this country if you happen to be a normal schlub. I believe most people fear the police, as opposed to RESPECTING the police. Policing is a monopoly...think about the nature Monopolies.

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Fooksie
IE # 239
Member # 331

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As a "BOOSTER" , I felt the need to post this.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/miami/sfl-913dadeshooting,0,2310224.story?coll=sofl a_tab01_layout

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" Every move a picture! "
Buddy Love

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