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Author
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Topic: How Many AN Posters Are REALLY Professional Cartoonists?
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Scott Shaw!
IE # 132
Member # 172
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posted
Please carefully re-read my initial post that unintentionally triggered this rather absurd tempest-in-a-teacup:
"Based on the tone and content of many recent posts here, I -- and others -- are starting to wonder just what percentage of ANIMATION NATION members are actual screen-credited professional cartoonists and other industry pros (current and retired), as opposed to animation journalists, students, fans or wannabees.
"I'm not trying to impose some sort of caste system here, but it might be useful for each member's I.D. to include a mention of their professional -- or non-professional -- status.
"Charles, do you have any hard figures regarding the background breakdown of AN's membership?"
Please note that my wording was intentionally neutral, with no judgments made for or against pros, fans, students, reporters, wannabees or whatever. Please note that I specifically said that I didn't want to initiate a caste system. Please note that I never asked for a list of pros or their qualifications.
But only on the Internet can an innocent question -- one posed purely out of curiousity -- spark such a variety of reactions, many of which reveal far more about the basic insecurities of certain posters than I ever wanted to know in the first place.
>Sheesh!<
Aloha,
Scott!
P.S.: Just for the record, I'm not only a professional cartoonist for animation and print, I'm also a fan -- you already know this if you've ever run into me at SDCCI, a journalist -- I write about animation and comic books, a student -- I'm always trying to learn new stuff, a wannabee -- I wanna be a better cartoonist -- who doesn't? and more. So if you think my initial question somehow disparages fans, journalists, students and wannabees, well, you're even more imaginative than you realize. -- SS!
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Lee Crowe
IE # 154
Member # 1135
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posted
Oh, and now that you know who I am -- of course, I love to hear from students and fans. And I rarely post, so I won't get upset if the student/fan base outweighs the pro base.
But the student/fans may want to take note: in order to compete, ya might wanna get off yer butt/the internet and go animate something! ![[nono]](graemlins/nono.gif)
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Look me up on http://IMDb.com.
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Peggy de Barr
Member
Member # 2097
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posted
Dear Scott,
So…you are “wondering” about the tone of the posts, you assume it’s because of the input of non-professionals, you would find the labeling of members “useful”.
“But” you’re not trying to impose a caste system.
I love the word “but”, don’t you?
Me, I agree with Andy Blazdell
quote:
How about a compromise? All the professionals who are bothered about this can list all their credentials in the profile, and when anyone wants to check how "qualified" they are, it's there for all to see. Those people who don't want to list their credentials don't have to, and all they have to worry about is that their opinions may be discounted (sometimes justifiably, sometimes not).
Or…for a small fee you can have a link or two.
Ohmygosh, that’s the way Charles set up AN already!
There, problem solved.
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OFFBEAT
IE # 39
Member # 873
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posted
I think he just honestly wants to know how many pros there are on the board.
The problem with Scott's post was that he used too many words. When you do that.. it opens it up what you are saying for interpretation.
I'll demonstrate. Same sentence.. but i'll add:
It opens it up for interpretation... from the normals.
Then you'll have people posting: "WHO YOU CALLING NORMAL?? MR.SPECIAL???" etc.. etc...
Perhaps this should be a poll question?
Are you a professional cartoonist?
1. Yes, I make my living as an artist/writer in the animation or related industry.
2. I do freelance now and then for extra bread. But it is not my full time gig.
3. I got paid before for my art.. but right now.. nope
4. I'm a student with aspirations of being pro.
5. Nope. Just a fan. I just like hearing artists b*tch and moan.
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Peggy de Barr
Member
Member # 2097
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posted
Point taken, Offbeat.
I like the poll questions. They seem to cover pretty much all situations. Maybe one more along the lines of "are you shifting from animation to comics/illustration?"
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Ravenshoe
IE # 186
Member # 783
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posted
...and there's also nothing wrong with saying: "This is who I am, this is what I've done, this is what I'm working on." If you're a pro, great. If you're a student, great. If you're a fan - that's also great. The pros and students need consumers.
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Scott Shaw!
IE # 132
Member # 172
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posted
"Witch hunt"?
Puh-lease.
Aloha,
Scott!
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SNAKEBITE
IE # 101
Member # 17
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posted
you know you work as an artist when your panties get knotted up yer butt when someone inquires your pro or nonpro status,hehehehehe.
yeah, as the definition goes, 13 years getting paid for art. so I guess Im a pro. 8 years working at home, I've done everything art to stay alive. currently Im a pro fashion designer who misses creating stories full time, but have a story on the side Im developing to keep me sane...whatever sane means,hehehehe.
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contact@animationnation.com
www.artbysnakebite.com
www.myspace.com/mrbite
www.redskystudio.com
www.myspace.com/redskystudio
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Graphiteman
IE # 218
Member # 2092
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posted
For a couple years I've described myself as a pro turned amatuer ![[Smile]](smile.gif) (in the true sense, one who does it for the love of it). I love, love , love this craftand its history, I love artists, I barely tolerate to hate the business end.
Several years ago I fell into something else which has proven beneficial for my family. I also do these little Flashes for myself and the web.
As far as IMDB...it only has two of my cheapquel credits....should I be bothered? EVen if Idid track down every production, as shorter as the list is to my siblings in graphite and pixel, IMDB
is not to list what games I worked on in the late 80s early 90s or my stint illustrating or my little independant web things. We need a jack-of-all-master-of-none database.
Now, back to reading the posts to see what all the kafuffle's about.
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Graphiteman
IE # 218
Member # 2092
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posted
I think what is important to me when discussing or debating is not necesarily knowing whether someone is pro or whatever, (heaven knows being a pro amke someone nice or right), it is that individuals qualify their points with reason....whether ine disagrees or agrees with that reasoning. Fans and students can make great points.
Typing "This-sucks-and-you-must-suck-if-you-like-this" doesn't cut-it for adult conversation.
Saw a great quote...on a Mary Englebert calendar of all places, by Mark Twain:
"Knowledge without experience is only information."
So an individual's professinal status doesn't really hold a pedigree for me...it's why they feel a way and how they came to that conclusion experientially, that means something to me.
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Ravenshoe
IE # 186
Member # 783
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posted
You make some good points. But as far as being a pro is concerned, the "School of Hard Knocks" is a very good teacher.
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OFFBEAT
IE # 39
Member # 873
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posted
With that theory...
You could be walking 20 miles to get across a bridge, How far would you be willing to go if everyone's path you cross said " The Bridge is out."??
and let me beat the wisenheimers on this board...
"I'd travel 16 miles!"
Now this joke, and ANY variation of it has been done.
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Ravenshoe
IE # 186
Member # 783
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posted
Very true, ignorance is the mother of adventure...
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devourax
IE # 275
Member # 2197
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posted
I've been a professional in the 2d/3d world for over 10 years. I cant imagine doing anything else.
I have many credits under my belt from film to television.
The best thing about this forum is not only the amount of talent, but the credibility, and experience of those who post. Places like highend, and cg- talk....have been saturated with students and wanna-be's. Not that thats bad....haven't we all been there before?
I just hope it doesnt get that diluted here.
-dev
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Devourax
http://devourax.blogspot.com/
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Floyd Bishop
IE # 183
Member # 2322
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posted
It's nice to be important, but it's important to be nice.
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Floyd Bishop
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tstevens
IE # 234
Member # 801
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posted
I've worked in commercial animation for five years profesionally. But I work for the family company so if you include painting cels and emptying trashcans, I've been in the business since highschool.
Our company is called Bandelier EFX and we are located in Albuquerque, NM. The website can be found here.
http://www.bandelier.com
Credits - Ughhhh.... None that I'll readilly admit to.
I think the last real decent thing that I animated was for a series of car spots that used a mallard duck (I think they called him Discount Duck but he was never officailly named that).
Other than that I've done regional spots for everything from The Old Spaghetti Factory to numerous car dealers, health care companies, a South American soft drink, and some medical technical stuff. I constantly talk to my wife about producing a short, but I think I love her more than my work and I'm not quite willing to spend hours after work sitting at the disk when I could be paying attention to her.
It's not as glorious as working for Curious, Duck, or WildBrain, but I have a lot of freedom.
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http://www.foogersnarts.blogspot.com
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AMID
IE # 43
Member # 289
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posted
There you go again, Scott. Starting another witchhunt. What is this, the fifth witchhunt for you this month? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I think the problem would be solved if instead of identifying people by pro status, we identified board members by race. I, for one, am curious to know how many American Samoans are lurking on this forum.
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Andy Blazdell
IE # 150
Member # 2434
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posted
I apologise for the term "witch-hunt" - after all, I'm not a Witchfinder and I have no right to use terminology I'm not an expert on. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
But seriously, I think Offbeat nailed it on the head. It was the words used in the original post. In the title of this thread, why was "REALLY" capitalised? Why was the "tone and content" of recent posts mentioned? Why refer to "I (and other posters)" - is there a secret cabal of real professionals who are discussing everyone else's posts? And why finish up with a call to Charles to give statistics? It's a bit like those sentences that start - "This isn't a criticism, but..."
Scott, you could have just said "I'm interested in who does what" and that would have got the same results. It just seemed, to me at least, that you were trying to make a point. Which is fair enough, you have every right to do that, just as I have every right to debate it. And it's nothing personal, Scott, it's just a debate.
What really got to me was Trondheimfan's post. Now I hope he didn't feel like that just because of my post (in which case I apologise), but he summed up very nicely how this subject can make people feel.
You see, what happens next week when some LA-based members get tired of the way the British and the Canadians are talking with authority about the way the industry works, when they're only experienced in the industry in their own countries? How will people feel if there is a call to put your country below your name too?
This kind of thing just gets out of hand once it starts. Now I realise I'm fanning the flames of this discussion, so I'm going to step back now and let nature take its course.
But if we do have to put job titles, I'm going to put "Moral Crusader" as mine... ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Andy
www.celaction.com
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THRAXISjr
Member
Member # 1556
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posted
Okay you found me out. I am the sole American Samoan lurker here. Fine. Do You feel better now?
Ua ou fiafia ua ta teiloai
Feiloai
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Stingray
IE # 292
Member # 1080
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posted
The fact that there's a broad cross-section of folk posting on this board, industry or otherwise, can only be a good thing. However, and I've only been dipping into AN since 2000, so feel free to shoot me down as I will probably get some of these bits wrong. This site was, I believe, set up as a forum for the North American animation community to have a voice to rally for or against that of the big companies... To fight and promote this great medium. Which included, as the years have rolled by (my eyes are misting up), welcoming other folk to join in for the ride - industry bums like myself from Europe, students (who will eventually head into an industry still hopefully including 2D!!), fans and animation pro's from across the globe. Having pro's (who are fans) chatting with fellow industry types, fans or students, maybe aspiring to be a pro, is what it's all about. But, as the title of this site states, this is 'AnimationNation - The voice of the Animation Industry', so I do think it's a valid question to ask, at least out of curiosity. Without industry folk discussing industry related topics this would just be another animation forum and I don't believe that was/is the intention.... Thankfully however, there does seem to be a good smattering of those folk on here. How about a star system like Ebay.. The number of years you've been in the industry affects the colour star you have... Mr Fun I'm sure will be one of those shooting red ones! I've only been working freelance for a mere 16 years so no idea what colour that makes me... God, I'm waffling here. Time for a cuppa. (That Ebay idea wasn't serious by the way....)
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Trondheimfan
IE # 169
Member # 2282
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posted
quote:
Now I hope he didn't feel like that just because of my post
Yes, Andy. All because of YOU! It's all YOUR fault!!!
Seriously, ofcourse I don't feel offended. I wasn't being completely serious in my post to begin with. Don't let my posts "get to you", I'm just a simple, dutch student. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
I totally understand why Scot asked this question. One of the most annoying things in life, is hearing people talking like they know everything, but they obviously don't. (It's even more annoying when some of those people are supposed to be your teachers... but I digress)
But I know I too have said some things over here that I shouldn't have said, and for that, I apologise.
Wait... apologise? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this one of the very few message boards on which people actually apologise to each other for things they said?
I'd say things aren't that bad around here.
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Tekenen is schrijven en spreken tegelijk.
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Striker
IE # 210
Member # 470
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posted
Interesting..it's starting to sound like alot of egos are becoming bruised. The more experienced ones trying to affirm their mettle, and the younger ones trying to show that their opinion is valid. I think if it's that much of a concern that perhaps there should be a seperate board for industry professionals only, and one for fans etc. The only way to get membership to the industry board is to send a resume.
Or, who really cares. Although I do think it's a good idea to have some idea of who you're dealing with especially when the more touchy subjects come up.
I've only been doing this for a little over ten years. I've worked on everything from feature films to a number of T.V series and am currently the Layout Director of a studio here in Toronto. Do I get the big shiny pin now??
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Minds are like parachutes - they only function when open.
- Thomas Dewar
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Scott Shaw!
IE # 132
Member # 172
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posted
Coming soon, Andy's in-depth analysis of my punctuation and spacing!
Aloha,
Scott!
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droosan
IE # 4
Member # 2225
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posted
You do tend to use 'exclamation points' quite a bit .. ![[funny]](graemlins/funny.gif)
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OFFBEAT
IE # 39
Member # 873
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posted
At least we know how many AN posters post with a bug up their bum.
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Peg
IE # 233
Member # 3008
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posted
It's been about 3 years since I started making a living off animation. That includes a little bit of teaching animation workshops to adults and kids.
I never feel professional, though.
Once, when a project I directed was mixed to Dolby Surround Sound, I felt professional for about ten minutes. Then, the technician and my sound designer began arguing over static noises that I couldn't even hear. So, I went back to feeling like an amateur.
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pud
IE # 30
Member # 245
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posted
how about if each post there is a added note next to the posters name, such as :
pud {worthy}
or:
Striker {worthy}
or in BobV's case...
BobV {not worthy}
maybe the list could include:
worthy
not worthy
American Samoans
long hair
fat a$$
rich
poor
any other ones ?
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" Your Scenes are there forever." - Ollie Johnston
http://markpudleiner.blogspot.com/
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intergalactic
IE # 195
Member # 1760
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posted
quote:
At least we know how many AN posters post with a bug up their bum.
I was wondering what that was, I could'nt sleep all night!
...i
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BobV
IE # 119
Member # 392
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posted
Pud, I can't think of a clever retort right now. But when I do, I'm going to post it and it will be such an awesome zinger that you will be shamed into silence. THEN we'll see who's worthy.
This will be you --> ![[lamer]](graemlins/lamer.gif)
...and this will be me --> ![[guitar]](graemlins/guitar.gif)
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Mr. Fun
IE # 63
Member # 352
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posted
Hey, Lee Crowe!
I didn't know you worked on those Jamaican commercials with Leo. That's great! I took one trip to Kingston Jamaica with Leo and ended up getting smashed by drinking too much rum. I think I passed out on the beach.
Oboy! That's when animation was fun.
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pud
IE # 30
Member # 245
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posted
Mr Funs so worthy, he gets to have his posts doubled. ![[bow]](graemlins/bow.gif)
BobV, bout time you woke up. Geeessshhh. ![[snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
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" Your Scenes are there forever." - Ollie Johnston
http://markpudleiner.blogspot.com/
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yumnoodle
IEcm
Member # 3078
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posted
Striker and Andy - ![[cheers]](graemlins/cheers.gif) I'm glad I wasn't the only one that felt that way. I don't have anything against Scott, but I do think his post was something to be considered. As I said before:
quote:
do I feel I need to defend myself by bringing a out a list? No. I go here to this site to be able to speak to people who are interested in animation and I don't go out of my way to make sure they have a credit to their name.
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Ravenshoe
IE # 186
Member # 783
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posted
quote:
do I feel I need to defend myself by bringing a out a list?
Probably not. But maybe, if you're arguing layout with a layout expert, you should. Just to show that you know what you're talking about.
Same thing with character design, or editing, writing, directing, producing. There are a lot of opinions flying around, for better or worse.
Let's put it this way, I discuss things with Mr. Fun but I NEVER argue with him.
A) Because he seems like a nice guy.
B) Out of respect for his body of work. His opinion is good enough for me. If he said the sky was green - I'd consider getting my eyes checked. Mr. Fun's "list" gives him credibility.
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yumnoodle
IEcm
Member # 3078
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posted
Your right, maybe this thread should be put to bed.
(didn't mean to rhyme)heeheee... ![[abducted]](graemlins/abduct.gif)
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pud
IE # 30
Member # 245
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posted
Ravenshoe, someone can have all the experience in the world, and still be a fool with his opinions.
That's what makes this job something that you have to really understand. The kid out of college may actually have a better realistic outlook regarding the industry than some experienced professional.
Experience can sometimes also cause lack of growth. To stop going forward and stay in the past. Living in the past.
And then there's the old guys , like Mr Fun, that can sum things up pretty well. Maybe at times, imho, a bit bitter and jaded, but i do understand and respect his frustration with the industry. With all his past history and his talent. And i'm not slamming Mr. Fun. I know that he gets his feathers ruffled because he cares about what this artform is all about. And the way the industry was
set up before.
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" Your Scenes are there forever." - Ollie Johnston
http://markpudleiner.blogspot.com/
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Christian
IE # 211
Member # 3132
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posted
And we need people like him to set things right again (not that everything right now is ALL bad but it could certainly [and easily] be a lot better).
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Ravenshoe
IE # 186
Member # 783
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posted
Absolutely true - but I'll always shut up and listen to Mr. Fun. I rarely, if ever address him because I'm too busy paying attention to what he's saying.
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Mr. Fun
IE # 63
Member # 352
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posted
Thanks, pud. One of the privileges of age is being old and cranky. When I was a young pup in the biz I use to listen to the "Old Codgers" piss and moan that the business was going to hell. I use to wonder what the heck was wrong with those old guys.
Yikes! Then one day I wake up and I'm an old guy. So, please excuse my occasional rants. I fell in love with this crazy business when I was a kid, and I guess I just don't want the "magic" to go away.
Finally, I only have two requests. That studios make the best films they can, and that the artists be treated with respect. Is that too much to ask?
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Ravenshoe
IE # 186
Member # 783
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posted
Aah. You're an old man. What do you know?
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