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Author Topic: Glen Keane and Disney Animation
DarkRaven
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Ever since his animation on the bear in "The Fox and the Hound" and his widely known animated sequence of Ariel singing in "The Little Mermaid," Glen Keane has brought a great sense of depth and style to Disney Feature Animation. Now, most people are prone to say that they enjoy the early Disney Animation (done by the nine great wise men of Disney Animation) more than some of the new ones, but I am prone to say that anything Glen Keane worked as a Supervising Animator on I enjoy more.

Now, I have occassionaly heard the bickering anger of the animator off in the corner saying that Glen Keane has ruined Disney and Animation altogether due to his work in Tarzan, where the movie ran approximately fifty million dollars over budget and lost Disney Feature Animation money to the point that they had to cut costs for their next project. I don't know if this is necessarily true, but I have heard the rumors . . .

With Disney's recent decline in success due to Treasure Planet's unpopularity, I am wondering what some of you in the animation industry think of this current situation. Can Disney save themselves? DO they even need to be saved? Do any of you actually work for Disney? Where do you work in animation and how does this recent decline in Disney's success affect you?


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toonedbob
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I'm not sure about those rumors - here are the numbers according to: http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/1999/TRZAN.html
I think Tarzan was considered a success and I've never heard an animator blaming another animator or director for the increase of costs in budgets. Plus Glen was not part of all the Disney "flops" or hits so I don't see how he ruined it for the rest. Also from what it appears from Disney executive perspective, he is one of the ones they kept. I'm sur more people with inside information will inform us better.

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BigFatPartyAnimal
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Definitely if i was going to zero in the downfall of 2D animation...down to one single entity on earth... it would be Glen Keane.

I also single handedly blame Thomas Edison for ruining darkness.

buncha Jerks.


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Mr. Fun
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Glen Keane is one of the most respected animators at Disney. The notion that any artist at Disney could cause massive cost over runs is ridiculous. Artists simply do not have that kind of power, and probably never will.
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BigFatPartyAnimal
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Thank you, Mr. Fun.
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Alane3
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I've see this same question asked all over AN, Ravenfoot. That people are actually asking it so often is a dire indication that something's gotta give. I've noticed that the climate here is one of bitterness and contempt. I think Disney has grown into a huge beast that can no longer see it's own--er--feet when it looks down.

They need to restructure badly. Sooner or later they will realize that blaming the animators is like a painter blaming his canvas. It's the brains and sinews of the company that need to be addressed. Cutting off the artists is furthering the problem, not solving it.

The only thing I can say for the artists is this:

We gotta stay positive. You can't be defeated. We are the ones who must reach up and show the man on the mountain what's going on and how it can be fixed. We gotta make sure we keep our credibility so our voice will be respected. we gotta stick together at all costs.

Christina


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Todd
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I suppose this is as good a thread to post these as any...here are responses to Entertainment Weekly's article last month on Glen Keane:

"Master animator Glen Keane has always been an inspiration. It's just too bad that he has to fear for his future; 2-D animation is not dying, it's being killed. Disney doesn't seem to be helping to revive it either. Their animation products now come rolling off the assembly line so quickly that their films have stopped being events. I'd settle for one really great piece of animation from Disney versus three subpar ones."


"No audience cares about 2-D versus 3-D animation. They care about good stories. Lilo & Stitch was original and engaging, Treasure Planet was lame and off-putting. Three-D is not fail-safe at the box office. Final Fantasy attests to that. Disney's most successful 3-D films were well-written, and if they put as much effort into all their animated films, they'd be making blockbuster money on both."

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BigFatPartyAnimal
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What was also refreshing about those letters is that they came from the mid-US and therefore may not be from people directly in the Hollywood centered industry.

If so, its refreshing to see that possible non-industry people have the same attitude about the importance of the story.

Then again... "Just Married" number one at the box office.


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moonflower
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Glen Keane is not the problem - the story is the problem and it always has been - the stories that are engaging - Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin, Lion King - these were good movies and did well. I think this is an age old story where hubris does a division in, in this case. When you are in the middle of great success it is hard to imagine failure, hence hard to be humble.

But all glory is fleeting - those in charge at FA forgot that.


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Dickie Crickitts
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This is the age old pointing the finger game. Why is it the artist always take the blame?

Raven, whoever that 'animator in the corner' is that you're getting your rumors from- don't listen. He/she is misinformed. Its always better to do your own research and find out the truth for yourself rather than listen to rumors. This one in particular is outrageous.


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Tahsin
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I was in Glen Keane's team on Tarzan, in the Paris studio. He was demanding and hard to please, but always a great inspiration. His mere presence filled us all with a compulsion to excel, and for a while there, that studio fairly crackled with the creative energy of which he was the centre. True, his perfectionism and his search, through us, for the essence of the Tarzan character might have cost the studio some pennies, but the truth remains that, even from a great distance, he was filling in most ably for the directors wherever they fell short. And the directors did fall short; whatever their merits as artists, they were just not up to the responsibility of a huge production like this, and the waste of time that ensued from their indecision, unclear briefs, and changing of minds must bear the greatest responsibility in the film's extensive production schedule. Many of the best, most successful sequences were boarded by Glen himself, strengthening weak situations and greatly improving the overall look and feel of the film.

Another difficulty came from the layout department which, apparently in awe of the possibilities afforded by the new computer technologies, often forgot that some artist had to draw the character in, resulting in layouts that made the scenes almost impossible to animate, and to shoot and present on linetest. (Actually, I'm not talking specifically about "deep canvas" here, which I found fun to work with, but rather conventional layouts with camera moves inside the computer.) That was because of a communications breakdown that came from too rapidly developing technologies and too little interaction between members of different departments, leading to animation assignments that were more difficult and time-consuming than necessary. I hoped those problems would be ironed out afterwards.


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DarkRaven
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quote:
Originally posted by Tahsin:
I was in Glen Keane's team on Tarzan, in the Paris studio.

It's great to see such welcome responses to glen keane's work, being relatively new here, I was in all honesty unsure whether or not people from differing animation backgrounds would dislike Glen Keane, but lo and behold I find somebody here who actually worked under Glen Keane on what I consider one of the best Disney Animated Features. Thank you for your responses to my questions on the popularity of Glen Keane in general.

I recently had gone to a Treasure Planet screening and got to meet the Master Animator himself and had asked him what he was working on next. It seems he's working on some new project he's planning on pitching to Disney where he hopes to help direct some sort of fantasy related film. Any word on this at all?


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Dave is
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I would also like to remind those that would blame any artist that it is the MANAGEMENT that set the extreme artist prices that drove costs up (if you even believe the attists were where the money went instead of tossing money into wasted deadend holes )and not any artist . If price was all that was important than the responsability is on the buyer of those services to budget properly. Even if TP cost 100 million less it still would have been a failure financially. Even though it's cost was extreme the failure is not because of any artist though, it was because like many films ( 2D ,3D , Live Action) it failed to interest the public.
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Disnfan
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There's an inteview of Glen Keane in the January edition of French magazine AnimeLand. Glen talked about "the tons of experimental animations he made for The Black Cauldron that never saw the light of day, his resentment concerning the intrusion of people like Eisner in the studio during the 80's that led to a situation where you have 400 artists and 600 people in the administration. His 4 year experience in Paris [was] an attempt to escape the 'Disney machine.' He says 50 people is enough to make a great picture and laments over the obsession with realism in animation, the trend with CGI, the awkward situation of 'old school artists' (pencil). He finally says that there is his 'own film' that he's wanted to do for long, but came Tarzan and then Silver and now, there's nothing else coming up for him so it's time to do it. He doesn't say what is this film but adds: 'There are a few projects cooking in my head. Someday, it will be ready'."
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TracyMarkLee
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I'm not privy to what Glen Keane's paychecks read, but I know they are a nice chunk of change. I also know for a fact that they are still only a tiny fraction of what an actor like Nic Cage or John Travolta makes per film. I would say that Glen has a far better track record than most "actors" in any case. As was mentioned in here earlier, Glen brings much more to the table than just being a great animator...he's also a great story guy a great designer, a great teacher and above all a great inspiration. I had the fortune of working with him on a few projects alongside clean up king Bill Berg and the experience was immensely positive. Glen more than earns his salary.
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Tahsin
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I don't know if this should have been kept a secret, but Glen was at one time considering making a film about Beethoven (not the dog, but the composer), and I think that would have been extraordinary. Kindred spirits!
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talos72
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Now a good Beethoven film, live action or animated I could go for...would be about time.

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Charles
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I recognized Glen Keane while he was sitting with a group of people, looked like students or young coworkers, while at Bob's Big Boy Restaurant in Burbank. Long time ago. Just after Eisner stepped in, about '85 I'd say.

I went up to him and asked him if he was Glen Keane. He looked surprised that he would be known by a stranger. Talked with him for a little while. Impressed me as a genuine, sincere gentleman.

Saw him also at an animation evening at Hollywood Presbyterian I think. A church auditorium that featured him, the writer of All Dogs Go To Heaven, a few other animation people. Around the Time of Rescuers Down Under.

You know, I don't give a rat's ass about any negative jibe that may be whispered about Mr. Keane, my fellow maniacs. That's monkey propaganda at it's best. Or worst. Same difference.

The man set a new standard for us all. The great, prolific character animator at its absolute finest. Successful, highly respected, much admired and so singularly talented he invigorated the entire Disney juggernaut. Best of the best. A master's master. He deserved everything he got and much, much more. I'd trade in every executive in this town for just one Glen Keane. The Babe Ruth of the Second Golden Age. I thank him for being a creative and personal inspiration.

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Fooksie
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Thanks , Charles. You said it much better than I could have.

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" Every move a picture! "
Buddy Love

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nutsycat
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Amen to that, Charles.
I'm sure that the Disney spin doctors see no problem giving millions to someone from live action like (to pick a name out of the hat) Dennis Quaid because "The Rookie" was a hit, but if you look at old Dennis' resume, you'll see that 90% of his films made no money. If you could pocket 10% of the gross of either Dennis Quaid's next film, or Glen Keane's next film, which would you choose?
If you could pocket a percentage of revenue over the next 20 years, which would you choose? Yet it's easier to stiff an animator out of a fair cut, because they can't get on "Entertainment Tonight" to complain about it. (No slag on Quaid- milk 'em for every cent they got)
The execs are desperate like a wounded beast now that the public is beginning to see how things are done in the back rooms. They'll be lashing out and slandering artists a lot more in the future.

In a related area, I read in the paper recently that NHL execs have been blaming "skyrocketing hockey player salaries" (sound familiar?) for lack of revenue, yet when the books are looked at, player salaries make up 30% of expenses. I guess the execs will have to fire all the hockey players so people will tune in to see a big slab of empty ice, huh? Then they'll only have to worry about that other 70%.
Silly monkeys!


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Altec
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I think Glen is a great guy. I was getting some ruff inbtwns checked by one of Glen's animators on T.P. when Glen walks into the office. I quickly leave the room so as not waste any of Glen's or animators time and didn't say a word. Later that night as I walked out to the elevator, Glen gets in with me and says "hi, you're so and so right?, I'm Glen Keane. I hear you're doing a nice job on the film. Hope we can work together in the future". Can you beat that! One the best animators in the world introducing himself to an inbetweener and then complimenting them. That my friends is a class act. That pretty much made up for everything negative I experienced at the mouse.
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JHBucktooth
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Glen's a great guy, a masterful artist, and I truly admire his unwavering dedication to quality. Every director knows Glen's involvement will boost the quality of any project a hundredfold. Yeah, I've heard he turns scenes that were timed out at 6 feet into 30 foot extravaganzas, that he routinely throws out layouts and draws his own, that his really-ruff ruffs can make a cleanup artist go postal, but that's a price most directors are willing to pay. "You can't have Falstaff, and have him thin".
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Charles
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Does his own layouts. Tough cleanups. By God, his scenes turn out incredible.

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TadStones
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I ran into Glen before TP. In the late 70's we shared the training rooms at Disney with Ron Clemments, Ed Gombert, Randal Cook and Randy Cartwright but I hadn't seen him for a couple of decades. He graciously introduced me to the guys he was having lunch with, "I used to be jealous of Tad's animation. It was so fluid." I was shocked and immediately second guessed the last 28 years of my life. Anyway, we had a great chat.

Glen was very excited about a computer process he was working to develop which would combine 2D and CG animation. The lines would stay, along with all the stretch and squash but the figure would be rendered as if it were a CG figure. Imagine a ballerina pastel by Degas... animated with its light sources consistent. Glen had already animated a test scene and done rotational models of the ballerina so it could be built in CG. I remember a special on Richard Williams who was trying for this sort of effect but he was tediously painting each page, a flowing, moving watercolor of a girl sniffing a flower.

Flash forward. Glen and I are having lunch after TP. After the company has said that it would be the last picture to use expensive computer techniques. Glen said he couldn't find an executive who would consider financing research into a new computer technique. He had hoped to use the process on his picture. It's not like Glen to be down but there was considerable headshaking.

Well, that was before David Stainton was announced as the new president of Features. Glen will get his day in court. Who knows what will happen? There could come a day when Eisner/Iger feel adamant about recapturing the leadership in the animation field. (for PR reasons no doubt) Creative explorations like Glen's might be just the thing they fund.


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pudd
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Tad.... Mike Gabriel is also in production with a project that is using hand drawn animation and then rendering the artwork in CG. It is a stylized look and very cool.

The future is exciting. The combining of what each bring to the table.

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Your scenes are there forever - Ollie Johnston


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BigFatPartyAnimal
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I just hope Glen sticks around there long enough for this storm to pass. I think it would be a HUGE blow for Disney to lose him.
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